capped vs. uncapped ferrules

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm no cue hound in the least
so I don't know what's typical
do most cues do cap or nah?

I've read a bit in the archives
capped more stability, strength
uncapped more feel, livelier hit
but I'm wondering
what do you like/not like? and why?

specifically
would an uncapped ferrule necessarily be lighter
or would thicker ferrule walls negate cap weight?
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm no cue hound in the least
so I don't know what's typical
do most cues do cap or nah?

I've read a bit in the archives
capped more stability, strength
uncapped more feel, livelier hit
but I'm wondering
what do you like/not like? and why?

specifically
would an uncapped ferrule necessarily be lighter
or would thicker ferrule walls negate cap weight?
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=373554 Been covered a LOT.
 

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
a capped ferrule is more resistant to breaking but does cushion the hit and softens it.............. an uncapped ferrule usually won't break as long as it is at least 1/2 inch long........... and it does give a sharper hit,,,, a capped ferrule is usually threaded and an uncapped can be threaded or just a tube...........

Kim
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
thanks- I read that one, and others
I'm still trying to get a feel for what's common/uncommon
and why
it doesn't seem like a big deal, but I'm honestly not sure

in your experience, does it affect the hit much?
do you have a preference?
Since you're not a 'cue hound' as you put it i would not sweat this detail. Had both and can't tell much if any difference. Covid is taking its toll. Again.
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
a capped ferrule is more resistant to breaking but does cushion the hit and softens it.............. an uncapped ferrule usually won't break as long as it is at least 1/2 inch long........... and it does give a sharper hit,,,, a capped ferrule is usually threaded and an uncapped can be threaded or just a tube...........

Kim

thanks kim!
 

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
Hey Evergruven,

Don't take any crap from the peanut gallery. You can ask any questions you want. We have certain types of jerks who can be pretty ugly when it comes to human relations. It's funny to me that these types of people even get on chat boards. Maybe he's trying to learn how to communicate better but he's off to a bad start today.

Best hitting shaft I've ever had was one I found in a pawn shop. I bought it with a broken tenon that was hanging on by only a few wood fibers. It had a capped and threaded ferrule. Obviously I have no clue how that shaft hit until I repaired it.

It was a shaft made by a Texas local builder named Toeboy (William Rikard). So I had him repair it. What he did was bore out the end of the shaft and glued in a new tenon. Then he installed an uncapped ferrule.

It hits great. Tons of feedback and feel.




mate we're on a pool site:D
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
true it is mostly ignored, shouldn't be though!

The ferrule is often paid little attention to and can vastly affect the hit of a cue. That thread linked above from 2014 is well worth reading. Some very smart very good cue builders posted in it. However, things have changed a bunch since 2014!

What was the best carbon fiber shaft in 2014?

There is a still image from a video I suspect that used to be around, may still be, that shows a ferrule moving a lot! House cues almost always have a very soft ferrule on them to dampen what could be a very stiff hit. I worked on a gross of house cues for a hall, new tips, new ferrules on many. I swapped out to much stiffer ferrules. One thing I found interesting, capped, uncapped, every one of those 3/4" or longer ferrules had blue chalk under them! They had worked as pumps or bellows and sucked in that chalk. I am talking an even layer or chalk end to end of the ferrule between it and the wood. I don't want a comparatively soft ferrule on my stick!

I favor a ferrule pretty close to square, the length of the ferrule is roughly the same as the diameter of the shaft. I favor a capped ferrule for strength, an open ferrule for feel.

I was experimenting with ferrules and pads when Hurricane Isaac sounded the death knell on my cue shop. I think there is a lot to be said for a pad or a ferrule so short it appears to be a pad. A very pure transfer of force compared to a long soft ferrule.

A ferrule was designed to protect the shaft long ago. Might even have began with the mace. They didn't have the glues and adhesives we have now back then or a pad might have been deemed acceptable and the ferrule never developed. I think it may have outlived it's original purpose. It does make a good reference point when aiming, other than that, a pad might be adequate to protect the end of the shaft and a thin hard pad has less affect on the hit than any ferrule, in my opinion anyway!

If you didn't search the cue builders forums it would be worth searching them too. However, there is a wide range of knowledge here on the main forum and most questions are deserving of a revisit every six months to a year. Some fast evolving things more often than that! I am getting sucked into carbon fiber shafts. I love traditional but I do believe carbon fiber is the better mouse trap. I loved traditional on race cars too, I still put what was fastest on mine.

Just as a matter of interest, look at the "vault plate" I think it is called on a REVO shaft. That is an interesting looking ferrule for you!

Hu
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The ferrule is often paid little attention to and can vastly affect the hit of a cue. That thread linked above from 2014 is well worth reading. Some very smart very good cue builders posted in it. However, things have changed a bunch since 2014!

What was the best carbon fiber shaft in 2014?

There is a still image from a video I suspect that used to be around, may still be, that shows a ferrule moving a lot! House cues almost always have a very soft ferrule on them to dampen what could be a very stiff hit. I worked on a gross of house cues for a hall, new tips, new ferrules on many. I swapped out to much stiffer ferrules. One thing I found interesting, capped, uncapped, every one of those 3/4" or longer ferrules had blue chalk under them! They had worked as pumps or bellows and sucked in that chalk. I am talking an even layer or chalk end to end of the ferrule between it and the wood. I don't want a comparatively soft ferrule on my stick!

I favor a ferrule pretty close to square, the length of the ferrule is roughly the same as the diameter of the shaft. I favor a capped ferrule for strength, an open ferrule for feel.

I was experimenting with ferrules and pads when Hurricane Isaac sounded the death knell on my cue shop. I think there is a lot to be said for a pad or a ferrule so short it appears to be a pad. A very pure transfer of force compared to a long soft ferrule.

A ferrule was designed to protect the shaft long ago. Might even have began with the mace. They didn't have the glues and adhesives we have now back then or a pad might have been deemed acceptable and the ferrule never developed. I think it may have outlived it's original purpose. It does make a good reference point when aiming, other than that, a pad might be adequate to protect the end of the shaft and a thin hard pad has less affect on the hit than any ferrule, in my opinion anyway!

If you didn't search the cue builders forums it would be worth searching them too. However, there is a wide range of knowledge here on the main forum and most questions are deserving of a revisit every six months to a year. Some fast evolving things more often than that! I am getting sucked into carbon fiber shafts. I love traditional but I do believe carbon fiber is the better mouse trap. I loved traditional on race cars too, I still put what was fastest on mine.

Just as a matter of interest, look at the "vault plate" I think it is called on a REVO shaft. That is an interesting looking ferrule for you!

Hu

thanks hu!
lot of good stuff-

I wonder, when folks use a pad
is it mostly on top of an uncapped ferrule?
maybe in that case one could get away with a "softer" ferrule
still maintain a certain bit of feel, while adding structure with a pad?
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I build most of my cues with capped and threaded ferrules. The reason is strength. I would guess at least 90% of the ferrules I have seen cracked through the years on other brands of cues were not solid capped. The more ferrule material you have the more the hit takes on the characteristics of the ferrule material. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. And the judge is each individual player as there is no one hit fits all standard. And all the different ferrule materials play differently.
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I build most of my cues with capped and threaded ferrules. The reason is strength. I would guess at least 90% of the ferrules I have seen cracked through the years on other brands of cues were not solid capped. The more ferrule material you have the more the hit takes on the characteristics of the ferrule material. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. And the judge is each individual player as there is no one hit fits all standard. And all the different ferrule materials play differently.

thanks chris- good info.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
sorry! I don't know

thanks hu!
lot of good stuff-

I wonder, when folks use a pad
is it mostly on top of an uncapped ferrule?
maybe in that case one could get away with a "softer" ferrule
still maintain a certain bit of feel, while adding structure with a pad?



The truth is that I don't know. With today's adhesives you would be basically building a capped ferrule with a true right angle inside shoulder I would think.

The shafts with a spiral wood ferrule required the use of a fiber pad to protect the ferrule. Some of these ferrules have failed but without knowing the history of why they failed it doesn't add much to know they failed. Was a fairly soft pad put on, or even no pad?

A softer ferrule reduces feel. Some cues vibrate like a tuning fork so taking some of that vibration out is almost a must. Cues can be a finely balanced instrument depending on the cue builder's skills and their communication with the buyer.

Unless they are so different that they outweigh other considerations, the closer to the tip, the more important to the hit each piece is. Tip is of major importance with the ferrule only slightly behind. Shaft taper and now material has became important. The joint and fore arm are of roughly equal importance, the butt plays a part and the wrap or lack of same. I have found out that even the bumper or lack of bumper can make a major difference.

Hu
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A softer ferrule reduces feel. Some cues vibrate like a tuning fork so taking some of that vibration out is almost a must. Cues can be a finely balanced instrument depending on the cue builder's skills and their communication with the buyer.

Unless they are so different that they outweigh other considerations, the closer to the tip, the more important to the hit each piece is. Tip is of major importance with the ferrule only slightly behind. Shaft taper and now material has became important. The joint and fore arm are of roughly equal importance, the butt plays a part and the wrap or lack of same. I have found out that even the bumper or lack of bumper can make a major difference.

Hu

hu, nice comments- thanks
can you explain why a softer ferrule reduces feel?
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Just like a rubber grommet

hu, nice comments- thanks
can you explain why a softer ferrule reduces feel?


Taking things to an extreme, imagine a ferrule made out of steel and one made out of soft rubber like a garden hose or air hose. The steel is going to compress or flex very little so pretty much everything that comes in one end of the ferrule is going to go out of the other end.

The rubber ferrule will bend, compress, absorb much of the shock. What it absorbs best in my opinion are harmonics and vibration, fast short distance motion. Much of the unpleasant side to side motion is absorbed. Consider a typical shock absorber on a car. It usually has a rubber grommet on each end to absorb the tiny bumps and vibration while the movement of the shock deals with bigger motions.

The softer the ferrule, the more it works like the rubber in the examples above. The harder it is, the closer it comes to steel. At this point or sometime in the near future I think the ferrule will no longer be needed. Tips and shafts can do the same work and we have one less component to concern ourselves with.

Hu
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Taking things to an extreme, imagine a ferrule made out of steel and one made out of soft rubber like a garden hose or air hose. The steel is going to compress or flex very little so pretty much everything that comes in one end of the ferrule is going to go out of the other end.

The rubber ferrule will bend, compress, absorb much of the shock. What it absorbs best in my opinion are harmonics and vibration, fast short distance motion. Much of the unpleasant side to side motion is absorbed. Consider a typical shock absorber on a car. It usually has a rubber grommet on each end to absorb the tiny bumps and vibration while the movement of the shock deals with bigger motions.

The softer the ferrule, the more it works like the rubber in the examples above. The harder it is, the closer it comes to steel. At this point or sometime in the near future I think the ferrule will no longer be needed. Tips and shafts can do the same work and we have one less component to concern ourselves with.

Hu

thanks hu
pretty interesting tho..
got me wondering how different ferrules resonate/
what ferrule material best matches wood in that respect
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Good areas to explore

thanks hu
pretty interesting tho..
got me wondering how different ferrules resonate/
what ferrule material best matches wood in that respect


Maybe some of the major suppliers could steer you in the right direction. Perhaps a short fairly thin metal ferrule is as good a bet as any. It doesn't play anything like wood but a short strong ferrule lets you get to the wood quicker. The snooker players cover a lot of territory with their shots sometimes and pretty much exclusively use metal ferrules. Best or tradition?

I don't know how much you know about alloys but there is a very nice to cut high strength aluminum, 6061. It is often tempered to T-6 which makes it cut even better than the nice cutting properties it has to begin with. Then there is a less commonly seen alloy, 7075. I think it is available in T-6 also and is not that far from steel in strength I believe. It is a step up from 6061 which is strong stuff itself. I have a bar of it around somewhere I wanted to make some ferrules out of.

There are some people that were happily playing without any ferrules using only a pad. I think Bob Jewett was for awhile but my memory might be wrong, seems like he mentioned it a few times long ago. A thinking man, wonder what his thoughts were after using a shaft without a ferrule awhile assuming memory isn't misleading me.

Hu
 
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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe some of the major suppliers could steer you in the right direction. Perhaps a short fairly thin metal ferrule is as good a bet as any. It doesn't play anything like wood but a short strong ferrule lets you get to the wood quicker. The snooker players cover a lot of territory with their shots sometimes and pretty much exclusively use metal ferrules. Best or tradition?

I don't know how much you know about alloys but there is a very nice to cut high strength aluminum, 6061. It is often tempered to T-6 which makes it cut even better than the nice cutting properties it has to begin with. Then there is a less commonly seen alloy, 7075. I think it is available in T-6 also and is not that far from steel in strength I believe. It is a step up from 6061 which is strong stuff itself. I have a bar of it around somewhere I wanted to make some ferrules out of.

There are some people that were happily playing without any ferrules using only a pad. I think Bob Jewett was for awhile but my memory might be wrong, seems like he mentioned it a few times long ago. A thinking man, wonder what his thoughts were after using a shaft without a ferrule awhile assuming memory isn't misleading me.

Hu

hu, what I know about alloy is limited to what I eat angel hair with-
I do possess a snooker cue with a brass ferrule, and I like the way the cue plays
but I'm not sure how well the ferrule contributes to that
except that I like not having to clean chalk off it ^_^

just a pad works for me, but does it work for the cue, I wonder?
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
hu, what I know about alloy is limited to what I eat angel hair with-
I do possess a snooker cue with a brass ferrule, and I like the way the cue plays
but I'm not sure how well the ferrule contributes to that
except that I like not having to clean chalk off it ^_^

just a pad works for me, but does it work for the cue, I wonder?


If it works for you that is all that matters. The ferrule can reduce the impact from a sharp blow to a push for the shaft, joint, and other components behind it but I don't know if it matters a whole lot. Made with modern components and techniques none of these components seem to fail. The short brass ferrule on a snooker cue gives about the same transfer as a pad and I can't remember any component failure in a snooker cue due to normal play other than wear and tear on the tip.

hu
 

Coos Cues

Coos Cues
The ferule is much like the type of joint. People love to discuss it because it makes them feel "in the know" when in reality it's just one miniscule element in the bigger picture. Put and elk master and then a water buffalo on any ferrule and tell me how big a factor the ferrule is in how it feels. It's mostly snake oil.

I want a ferrule that wont' split and is easy to keep clean. And I want it to look how I like it to. After that I can't tell much difference and neither can most of us.
 
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