Installed cue tips falling off

E

eNkel

Registered
Hey!

So, I'm installing cue tips without a lathe since more than a year now and I had never a problem like this before.
Three Kamui Black Medium tips wont hold onto the ferrule of the Predator Z2 and the old original Z shaft. One got loose after about half a year, and after I installed on both shafts new Kamui's, after about 15 minutes of playing they fell off like they were never glued together.
Here a few pics:

My procedure is very simple but as I said, never had problems before...
I cut off the old cue tip, use a Tweeten Rapid Cue Tip Tool to sand the top of the ferrule and the underside of the new cue tip, put some glue of Loctite 454 on the ferrule, put the cue tip on it and press it down with this:

Now I put it down for about half an hour and then cut it.

As I said, with this procedure I installed about 50 cue tips and never (with a few mistakes at the beginning) had problems. The only thing which I think could be a problem was, that the tip, as I was pressing it down onto the ferrule with the tool in the photo above, was sliding onto the side, so it wasnt in the middle anymore. Dont get me wrong here, the tip was overlaying the ferrule, but on one side it was pretty close. Could this be the problem that the glue couldnt hold on? And is there a better way or tool to press the cue tip pretty much centered onto the ferrule?

Please help me because Im getting pretty frustrated about this because I dont know whats the problem...
 
AlexandruM

AlexandruM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Had the same problem on my last tips (different tips and ferrules). Sometimes glue just seems to not hold the tip, I'm using Loctite Gel PowerFlex. Thinking about changing the glue.
 
M

mister__p

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My 2 cents

1. After sanding the top of the ferrule, sand it with a finer paper until it is fairly smooth but not too smooth. Score the surface with a razor blade and then and wipe thoroughly with the alcohol to remove any residual dust / grease.

2. Sand the back of your tip with sand paper starting with medium then progressing to fine until you are sure the back surface is completely flat then wipe clean with a cloth/alcohol

3. Wrap some masking tape around your ferrule to protect it from excess glue

4. Apply your super glue gel to the ferrule and spread it using a zig zig/criss cross

5. Apply a tiny amount of glue to the back of you tip and spread it in the same way

6. Stick the tip to the ferrule and hold tight in position with constant pressure for 30 seconds or more. When you get tired, stand the cue upside down and use your finger to apply LIGHT downward pressure for a minute or two.

I do not see anything obviously wrong with your procedure but suspect the sanding and cleanliness of the sticking surfaces could be better.

There is a chance your glue is past it's expiry and not sticking to the tip very well. Try switching glues? or the back of these particular tips have been contaminated / soaked in oil? If you have only had issues with these tips, I would suspect the as being the issue. Where did you buy them ?
 
E

eNkel

Registered
AlexandruM said:
Had the same problem on my last tips (different tips and ferrules). Sometimes glue just seems to not hold the tip, I'm using Loctite Gel PowerFlex. Thinking about changing the glue.
Click to expand...

Glad I'm not the only one :)

mister__p said:
My 2 cents

1. After sanding the top of the ferrule, sand it with a finer paper until it is fairly smooth but not too smooth. Score the surface with a razor blade and then and wipe thoroughly with the alcohol to remove any residual dust / grease.

2. Sand the back of your tip with sand paper starting with medium then progressing to fine until you are sure the back surface is completely flat then wipe clean with a cloth/alcohol

3. Wrap some masking tape around your ferrule to protect it from excess glue

4. Apply your super glue gel to the ferrule and spread it using a zig zig/criss cross

5. Apply a tiny amount of glue to the back of you tip and spread it in the same way

6. Stick the tip to the ferrule and hold tight in position with constant pressure for 30 seconds or more. When you get tired, stand the cue upside down and use your finger to apply LIGHT downward pressure for a minute or two.

I do not see anything obviously wrong with your procedure but suspect the sanding and cleanliness of the sticking surfaces could be better.

There is a chance your glue is past it's expiry and not sticking to the tip very well. Try switching glues? or the back of these particular tips have been contaminated / soaked in oil? If you have only had issues with these tips, I would suspect the as being the issue. Where did you buy them ?
Click to expand...

1. I did this procedure you are mentioning a little while ago, then one month ago, just for experimenting, I only sanded it with the tool I mentioned and it worked also. So, I dont think the problem lies here.

3. Didn't mention that, I'm doing this already.

4./5. I never put glue on the tip itself, will try that the next time.

6. This is a big problem for me... somehow the tip will always move out of the centre a little bit when I use my fingers. With the tool in the photo above, I got it right with 4 tips, somehow the two Kamui's were, as I said before, sliding away again.


The glue is completely new and not expired. The only thing which got my attention was that the tips (Medium) were pretty hard. Cutting/Trimming was very difficult which was a surprise to me because I never had this experience with other Kamui tips. Half a year ago I installed for myself a Black Hard and even that was easier to treat. The back of the new tips after sanding were like flat but really smooth...just too smooth when you are sanding it, hard to explain but it looked like it was a really hard layer.
From the ~50 tips I installed went 5 of them off. But never in this way the two (three) Kamui's did. One was a Clear Black Medium where the clear layer broke in half and the other one was a Zan Grip Hard, but with both tips you could see that it was glued together on one half of the tip at least. But these three Black Mediums just came off and as you can see, there is almost no trace of glue, it just doesnt get into my head why.
I bought the tips from a official retailer here in Europe.
 
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T

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did you try sanding the tip flat, THEN applying a thin coat of CA on the tip? From my experience, you really need to seal the back of the tip to prevent uneven absorption of the glue. I've removed old tips only to find half the tip was glued on-the other half, no glue as the tip had absorbed it. Once sanded flat, sealed with CA, then score the tip and ferrule with your razor (I recommend Lennox blades), you should find the tip will stay on. Hope this helps.
 
Tommy-D

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
From the looks of it,BOTH your ferrule and tip are much too coarsely sanded to give you a good glue surface.

I personally have found the Predator ferrules to be kind of waxy and slick even with Loctite Professional,so to ensure the best bond,I use a CA accelerator. Tommy D.
 
jayman

jayman

Hi Mom!
Gold Member
Silver Member
when i saw your pictures my first thought was there didn't seem to be any glue present, also one of the ferules has chalk where the glue should be. I wonder if you may not be using quite enough glue?
Anyway...study the picture below, relax, and all of your problems will disappear. Lol

Super Glue.jpg
 
JC

JC

Coos Cues
I quit using super glue for tips because it works great 95% of the time and the other 5% it doesn't due to a variety of variables mostly out of my control.

I use Gorilla poly glue and they don't fall off. Have used it on tough installs that kept having trouble for whatever reason and it works. I now use it every time.

I tried it by accident about 6 years ago I was on the road at my parents house playing in a tournament and the tip fell off of my player. It had a tiger Onyx that was installed by a professional and all my dad had was some gorilla glue so I centered it and glued it back on. It stayed. Gave that cue to a broke buddy and he plays with it daily and it's still on there today. This is how I got the idea that it might work on problem installs and it does.

The dry time is overnight which is the down side but having tips fall off is embarrassing and expensive to your reputation and wallet.

JC
 
Dave38

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
First thing is....don't score the ferrule, CA works best with 2 very flat and smooth surfaces. Second is to, as mentioned above, prime the tip with thin CA. ALSO, make sure the tip doesn't 'rock' to and fro when you dry fit the tip to the ferrule, before you glue. If it rocks even slightly, it makes it more likely to come off at a later time, as the extra space will be filled with glue and will let go under pressure of use. I use the cheap thin CA to apply to the bottom layer, and then very quickly, wipe the excess and hit it with a spray accelerator, then apply and wipe another quick coat. Let dry a minute, then sand flat again, and then glue it on. Most layered tips soak up the glue almost as fast as you can apply it, and therefore will cause a glue-staved joint if you don't seal it first. As for the Kamui Clears, they recommend using the 401 Loctite, as it glues the polycarb pad better. I have used the gel on them at first and had them let go while trimming
Dave
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
There is no CA better than Loctite 454 .

I suggest using an accelerator on those plastic ferrules.
Apply a coat on the face then spray with accelerator .
Make sure you are wearing a mask ( cartridge filter ).
 
Y

yvaiwhy

New member
5e2c5810039686fa2ad0b8079fb13865.jpg


I’ve been using this for all tip installations. I’ve done Phenolic/Bakelite, G10 and leather tips. No issues yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
F

FLH88

Registered
in general super glues don't stick to themselves [ old glue ] very well. Make sure there's no old glue on the stick. Just another idea.
 
T

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've checked with Loctite and other CA makers websites-it appears that, first, CA needs moisture (either from humid air or even on the surfaces to be glued). They warn that this is why CA bonds skin so well. The moisture on skin plus the grooves and creases really helps CA bond skin. Roughing up the surfaces helps too. Light sanding could work, but small scores on any glues surface will help with bonding.
 
GoldCrown

GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I use Bob Smith CA...$8.00 for 2oz on Amazon.

If the the tips are falling off now and after 6 months...

Using enough glue?
Flat clean rough sanded surfaces?
Go to the source Use new glue. You said your glue was new but that does not mean anything.
If it only happening with a certain tip it's a materials issue. Try a different tip.
Did you change technique?
 
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conetip

conetip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fresh Ca helps. For some ferrules the PU glues do work, or toughened epoxies.
406 loctite for difficult to bond materials works very well, as does the 454.
Having Flat surfaces on the ferrule and the tip is important. If the tip can rock even the slightest amount when put against the ferrule when dry before gluing, chances are it will fail at some point. I used to sand with 120 or so grit. Have not done so since speaking with Royce about tips, so went to using fine paper , 400 grit for the tips. Also changed to the priming of tips, so put a thin layer of glue on the tip, let it dry, sand back flat then glue. The primer/accelerator only needs to be on the ferrule surface. I wait until it has dried before placing the tip. Either use the spray, or in my case a q tip (cotton bud for the English) and wipe a very thin layer on the flat ferrule surface. Also found that having the paper bonded to a flat surface, made things a lot easier, than having the paper sitting on a flat surface. Thin double sided tape is good. The paper strip only needs to be like 5/8 or 3/4 inch wide, same width as the thin double sided tape.
 
Kim Bye

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
By looking at the pictures, I think I see several problems.

1. Ferrules are not properly faced off.
2. Tips aren`t sanded flat, sealed with CA, then sanded flat again
3. I suspect no denatured alcohol was used to remove grease or dirt from the two surfaces before gluing.

Spend money on a quality CA, Loctite 401 and 454 both works great. My experiences with B.S.I are mixed, I like their epoxies though :smile:
 
E

eNkel

Registered
Thanks guys for the answers! Will help me alot!

But I need a little bit explanation about a few words and abbrevations. What do you mean with CA? Is this fluid glue like Loctite 401?

but small scores on any glues surface will help with bonding.
Click to expand...
don't score the ferrule
Click to expand...
What do you mean with scores/score? Google translater can't help me with this verb/word :embarrassed2:

...and...
If the tip can rock even the slightest amount when put against the ferrule when dry before gluing, chances are it will fail at some point.
Click to expand...
"rock"?! You mean sliding around?


And guys, only put a thin layer of super glue on the tip, not the ferrule, right?
 
scdiveteam

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Medium Atlas Super Glue. Atlas Cynos are not diluted at all. Much cheaper also than locktite per unit volume by a factor of 10x also.

If you lap the tip and scuff the ferrule face, use this glue and the tip come off, quit cue repair for life. LOL
 
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