League Tournament Question.

Coop1701 · Jun 4, 2017

I had a odd situation this weekend during LTC 9-Ball Championships. The team was rushing to get their 5th player there. He finally showed up and they said Jack is ready to play he's a 2. I looked on the paperwork and No Jack was on it. They couldn't even show me his name on the paperwork. Anyway.., I started to ask for his ID and APA Membership card.

I just wanted to make sure he was who he said he was. I didn't and the match was played. This SL2 beat my SL4 20 to Zero in 13 innings. Never in my like have a seen a 2 play like that.

My question is during those LTC and tricup weekends. Do you guys ask for ID or proof of who they are suppose to be?

Shenanigans · Jun 4, 2017

Coop1701 said:
I had a odd situation this weekend during LTC 9-Ball Championships. The team was rushing to get their 5th player there. He finally showed up and they said Jack is ready to play he's a 2. I looked on the paperwork and No Jack was on it. They couldn't even show me his name on the paperwork. Anyway.., I started to ask for his ID and APA Membership card.

I just wanted to make sure he was who he said he was. I didn't and the match was played. This SL2 beat my SL4 20 to Zero in 13 innings. Never in my like have a seen a 2 play like that.

My question is during those LTC and tricup weekends. Do you guys ask for ID or proof of who they are suppose to be?

In my area every match at both the LVQ and Tri-Annual doesn't start till both players ID's have been checked by a referee. The ref is responsible for confirming that the ID and player on the scoresheet are one and the same.

If my area didn't do this I would always ask for an ID if I didn't know the player personally.

dabarbr · Jun 4, 2017

The way you described things here I'm wondering why you didn't ask for an id? Most would have.

mvp · Jun 4, 2017

Take pictures of guy playin, that helps with player swap fraud!

zpele · Jun 4, 2017

Although I'm not questioning the situation (it sounds sketchy to me as well)- a 2 winning in 13 innings isn't that bad. The bad part is the 4 not getting any balls in even with 12-13 turns at the table.

20-0 is a big win but I'm guessing your 4 is at least partially to blame.

Coop1701 · Jun 5, 2017

zpele said:
Although I'm not questioning the situation (it sounds sketchy to me as well)- a 2 winning in 13 innings isn't that bad. The bad part is the 4 not getting any balls in even with 12-13 turns at the table.

20-0 is a big win but I'm guessing your 4 is at least partially to blame.

Oh yeah.. He is to blame also. I think it was nerves... I have just never seen a two play combos and carom like this guy. He position play was probably better than mine and I am SL6. I honestly don't mind losing to another team. My team plays well together. I have seen players just have awesome matches before. But this just seemed more to me.

De420MadHatter · Jun 5, 2017

Coop1701 said:
Oh yeah.. He is to blame also. I think it was nerves... I have just never seen a two play combos and carom like this guy. He position play was probably better than mine and I am SL6. I honestly don't mind losing to another team. My team plays well together. I have seen players just have awesome matches before. But this just seemed more to me.

Happens more than you think. Even a 2 can catch a little gear, as crazy as it sounds. A 4 can also be off and play down to a 2 fairly easily imo.
Disclaimer - I detest leagues and do not play :thumbup:. It's impossible to escape being around them though.

soon2bsleeved · Jun 5, 2017

(He finally showed up and they said Jack is ready to play he's a 2. I looked on the paperwork and No Jack was on it. They couldn't even show me his name on the paperwork.)

My question is, why did you let the match happen if player Jack wasn't on the team roster?

Jim C.

Coop1701 · Jun 5, 2017

soon2bsleeved said:
(He finally showed up and they said Jack is ready to play he's a 2. I looked on the paperwork and No Jack was on it. They couldn't even show me his name on the paperwork.)

My question is, why did you let the match happen if player Jack wasn't on the team roster?

Jim C.

He said his real name was William and the lady from the APA said they always change the paper work to their legal name. But really I should have checked his ID. I doubt it matched who he said he was.

ctyhntr · Jun 5, 2017

When I was co-captain, I used to have the telephone number for my league operator and league rep on my phone. I also used to keep a PDF link to the league manuals on my smartphone.

Straight from the APA Team Manual.

8. VERIFICATION OF IDENTITY
Your opponent has every right to request proof of identity from you and
your teammates. Positive identification is a picture I.D.
;
for example, a photograph on a valid driver’s license.
If identification is not adequate, play the match and file a protest. Give your League Office plenty of time to settle the matter. The penalty for falsifying a player on your roster will be suspension and/or disqualification of each member of the team(s) determined
to be involved in the falsification.

http://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Team-Manual-English.pdf

Billiardsfan · Jun 5, 2017

Coop1701 said:
He position play was probably better than mine and I am SL6. I honestly don't mind losing to another team.

If he had position play that matched a skill level 6, I would think that he would have made more than 1.4 balls per inning (19 points to win and only 13 innings total). With the total innings being only 13, the two appears to have had a pretty good match, but not too good. I have had players that were obviously 5 or 6 handicaps that have played as a 2 and the match is over in four innings. It happens.

Celophanewrap · Jun 5, 2017

Coop1701 said:
He said his real name was William and the lady from the APA said they always change the paper work to their legal name. But really I should have checked his ID. I doubt it matched who he said he was.

If the LO or someone I trust can verify their identity that's usually good enough for me, if
no one can verify we will still play the match. If we lose we don't sign anything until we
resolve the situation. But here we all pretty much know each other so a situation like that
would be pretty rare. Then of course there are a few pool hall rats that seem to know
anyone in this town that has ever picked up a cue to play.
That thing about always putting their legal name on the paperwork, I'm not sure if that's
true, certainly not here. I've seen names on paperwork like "Easy E" "Sausage" Bony Sony" "
Lady J" "Gar", just to name a few, but we all know these folks so it's not a problem.
In your situation I would have some questions for my LO

KRJ · Jun 5, 2017

So, you knew he was a "ringer" before they game, because the other team was not even smart enough to call him by a name that is on the Roster. He then proceeded to shoot like a "ringer" as originally thought, and you never asked for ID before or after the match?

They did everything right in getting caught. Guy was late, guy's name was not on the roster, guy played like a 6 but listed as a 2. What more could you ask for in them saying we are sneaking this guy through ?

If the system is going to work, you need to call folks out. If they are legit, they have no problem showing ID.

lorider · Jun 5, 2017

I have to ask coop. Was your lo there? Surely you could have asked him.

Our lo personally runs every event higher than end of session playoffs. I probably bug our lo more than anyone during tri cups or higher. I stop any match where its a possibility a foul may occur during a shot. I believe I called him over to observe 10 times during our 2 rounds we played in the best of the rest Saturday....we won btw. There is not going to be any doubt on whether the shot was good or not in any match my teams play.

Our 8 ball ltc is this coming weekend and 9 ball ltc is in 2 weeks.

Back on subject...like the poster above says.. Quite a few players in our area are known by nick names and their real name is on the score sheet. I am a perfect example. It would be safe to say that 90% of the league knows me by my nick name since I play in 5 divisions but I doubt if 10 % know my name on the score sheet

Just this weekend when I threw my self the opposing captain over to me...hey ". Insert nick name " what's your name on the score sheet ?

A 2 beating the crap out of a 4 ? Yea I've seen it.

APA Operator · Jun 5, 2017

The difference in names on the score sheet has to do with the software we use. The regular league software puts nicknames on the score sheet (Jim vs James, or whatever is in the player's "Nickname" field), but the tournament software uses what's in the "First Name" field, usually the player's legal name. That's to facilitate checking ID, since the ID usually has the legal name.

PoppaSaun · Jun 5, 2017

Coop1701 said:
Oh yeah.. He is to blame also. I think it was nerves... I have just never seen a two play combos and carom like this guy. He position play was probably better than mine and I am SL6. I honestly don't mind losing to another team. My team plays well together. I have seen players just have awesome matches before. But this just seemed more to me.

How could you tell his position play was better than yours? He only made shape where he was able to make a second ball six or seven times. Unless he had 3-4 decent runs and a bunch of safeties.

Regardless, he isn't playing shape like a 6. Sounds more like a lucky 2. How does a guy get to be a 2 in APA anyhow?

Zero balls in 13 innings...did your player think he was playing 1-p?

hang-the-9 · Jun 5, 2017

Coop1701 said:
I had a odd situation this weekend during LTC 9-Ball Championships. The team was rushing to get their 5th player there. He finally showed up and they said Jack is ready to play he's a 2. I looked on the paperwork and No Jack was on it. They couldn't even show me his name on the paperwork. Anyway.., I started to ask for his ID and APA Membership card.

I just wanted to make sure he was who he said he was. I didn't and the match was played. This SL2 beat my SL4 20 to Zero in 13 innings. Never in my like have a seen a 2 play like that.

My question is during those LTC and tricup weekends. Do you guys ask for ID or proof of who they are suppose to be?

20 points in 13 innings is barely a 2 ball average a turn. Sounds like a 2 to me. If he played position and made combos so well how did his average come out so low? You said he played better shape than you and you are a 6, so why did he miss every other shot? Did he leave a safe every time or a real tough shot? If he did, then I can see him sandbagging by "missing" and "accidentally" leaving a tough shot. If he played shape and made shots like a 6, he should have won in 3-4 innings.

I thought new male players started as a 3?

lorider · Jun 5, 2017

PoppaSaun said:
How could you tell his position play was better than yours? He only made shape where he was able to make a second ball six or seven times. Unless he had 3-4 decent runs and a bunch of safeties.

Regardless, he isn't playing shape like a 6. Sounds more like a lucky 2. How does a guy get to be a 2 in APA anyhow?

Zero balls in 13 innings...did your player think he was playing 1-p?

Not singling you out....just quoting you to explain to several of you who are obviously not familiar with the apa 9 ball scoring system. Also to clarify that the 2 was playing a 4 ...not a 6 as a few apparently misunderstood.

A 2 goes to 19 points
A 4 goes to 31 points.

The fewer points you allow your opponent the higher your score is.

A total of 20 points is available each match. The points are awarded on a sliding scale from 20-0 to 12-8.

The op said the 2 won 20 -0 . That means the 2 scored 19 points for the win and held the 4 to between 6-8 points

A few examples of the sliding scale. The 2 wins 19-11. The score would be 19-1. The 2 wins 19- 28. The score would be 12-8 .

During regular session you play 5 matches with a total of 100 points available. At the end of 5 matches the team with the most points wins. During playoffs or higher the matches stop when one team reaches 51 points as there is no way the other team could win. During regular session you continue playing regardless of what the score is because the points are applied to your team total for the session and not playing one match could be the difference between first or 2nd place at the end of the session.

Mkindsv · Jun 5, 2017

In TAP, this is why any new player has to stat out as a four, if the player is not in the system at least they do not get to state they are a TWO and blow out a bunch of other players until their lies catch up to them

Celophanewrap · Jun 5, 2017

hang-the-9 said:
I thought new male players started as a 3?

New male players start as a 4, unless they have an established S/L in the the other APA
game. If they do they would start as that skill level.

Another thing I'm curious about (to the OP) - Please excuse if this has been addressed already, Is it possible that "Jack"
was a brand new player in your spring session and didn't have enough plays to participate in LTC? Is it possible that's why
they couldn't find him on their roster so he suddenly became William?
At our LTC and further more out in Las Vegas, if a player is ineligible their names are left off the roster. I guess to avoid any confusion.
I mean do you know this other team at all? Do they have a rep for sandbagging or something like that? Would they try to sneak on a ringer
and keep him "below the radar" for a session, then turn him loose in the LTC? If they did, it's kind of a stupid move if you ask me. Good way
to get DQ'd

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