Joint/pin characteristics

Hardmix

Registered
As a player looking to change cues I am trying to get a better understanding on joints and how they impact the play of a cue.

Is the prevailing thought on joint stiffness....
Steel
Phenolic
Ivory

How does pin size affect the playing characteristics?

How do piloted vs flat face compare on hit?

Lastly when talking about the hit of a cue which componant plays the largest role?
Joint
Shaft
Ferrule
Tip

Hardmix
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My honest opinion is that these questions is a classic example of overthinking it...

The "big" pins: 3/8-10, 3/8-11, 3/8-11.5, Radial and Wavy joint are just tiny variations on the same theme. Usually they screw straight into wood, some brands like Tiger has a insert in their shaft, some sort of phenolic/bakelite i guess.
5/16-14 is often piloted, most makers use a brass insert, but brands like Joss use a phenolic insert instead.
5/16-18 is usually flat faced and again a brass insert is the most common, although Huebler used a type of nylon insert.
Uni-Loc is based on the pilot and some people feel the hit is dead. I don`t agree, it`s more that the big brand that use Uni-Loc on their cues make dead feeling shafts...
Pin material is mostly about being able to controll the weight distribution.
I can`t feel any difference between flat faced or piloted designs, all of these things are mostly emotional/personal prefrence.
Go with something that it`s easy to find other shafts for. 3/8-10 or Radial would be my choice, Wavy joint from Mezz is also nice, but a very proprietary design.
As to what is most important: The closer you get to the cueball, the more difference it makes, so a good tip and a well constructed shaft is what you mostly feel.
 
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Mcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As a player looking to change cues I am trying to get a better understanding on joints and how they impact the play of a cue.

Is the prevailing thought on joint stiffness....
Steel
Phenolic
Ivory

How does pin size affect the playing characteristics?

How do piloted vs flat face compare on hit?

Lastly when talking about the hit of a cue which componant plays the largest role?
Joint
Shaft
Ferrule
Tip

Hardmix

Here's my simple suggestion: Keep trying cues with different joints, tips, ferrules, builder, until you find what feels good to you. All that information you are requesting will not do you any good if they all feel the same to you. Is all about what feels and performs the best for you, and yes its time consuming.

Mario
 

tsp&b

Well-known member
Silver Member
IMHO. The most critical thing is the 6 inches between your ears. As Mcues put it " Is all about what feels and performs the best for you,"
 

Hardmix

Registered
A little background, I took 17yrs off and came back about 2 yrs ago and was a bit overwhelmed with the explosion in equipment. I bought a custom cue based on what I read here and other places that I thought may be similar to the Southwest that I use to play with but that was not the case.

In the end, I hit a few balls with a friends wavy joint Mezz and ended up buying one. The cue plays good with both triangles and zan tips but it is still not quite there.

So my "questionnaire" was effort to help narrow down cue componants that will give me the hit heat I am looking for.

Thank you for the responses.

Hardmix
 

JC

Coos Cues
I don't think it's possible to know for sure whether two cues feel different due to the pin or other factors since no two are exactly the same in all other ways. If a cue hits the way I like I could care less what pin it has, much less know without unscrewing it. The beauty of being a B player I guess although I'm not sure world beaters would do any better identifying the pin by the hit. The joint collar material is a different matter as it seems more tangible.

I remember the bozo who posted on here a few years back saying he preferred the 3/8 11 hit to the 3/8 10. I wonder if he's won any world championships since then?:)
 
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KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
How does pin size affect the playing characteristics?

A joint pin has one main function and most do that quite well.
Why do some want to give it attributes it's not entitled to or capable of ?
Answer : wishful thinking and a lack of understanding. There's no magic involved.
Ballast and degree of tension are about it. Focus on the things that matter.
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A little background, I took 17yrs off and came back about 2 yrs ago and was a bit overwhelmed with the explosion in equipment. I bought a custom cue based on what I read here and other places that I thought may be similar to the Southwest that I use to play with but that was not the case.

In the end, I hit a few balls with a friends wavy joint Mezz and ended up buying one. The cue plays good with both triangles and zan tips but it is still not quite there.

So my "questionnaire" was effort to help narrow down cue componants that will give me the hit heat I am looking for.

Thank you for the responses.

Hardmix

"Not quite there" is a statement I hear all the time, what shaft are you using and what do feel is missing?
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
didnt joss many years ago do a blind test by hiding the type of joints steel and ivory i think among different cues and among the pros who participoated
not only could they (majority) not identify the type of joint
some could not even guess which cue model was their playing cue...:eek:??
perhaps someone who remembers that event could comment
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
didnt joss many years ago do a blind test by hiding the type of joints steel and ivory i think among different cues and among the pros who participoated
not only could they (majority) not identify the type of joint
some could not even guess which cue model was their playing cue...:eek:??
perhaps someone who remembers that event could comment
I would love to see that test, and I think the results you mention is just about right.
 

Murray Tucker

Just a Padawan
Silver Member
Here it is. I keep it handy all the time.

Here is a Post from John McChesney circa 1999:

Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered
with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a
steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of
ferrule. We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the
weekend.

The results:
Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about
what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro
(Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue
he liked the most during the attempts: He thought was surely a Meucci,
plastic joint when in reality it was an older Adams with a piloted steel
joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a
steel joint. Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may
sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't
"hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc.
What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not
the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people ref. to the vibration in
the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft
hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary
criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with: The tip
(soft, med or hard) The shaft diameter and density of the wood The taper (or
stiffness of the shaft) To this day, I still don't believe the joint has
much to do with the reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the
3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue plays than anything
else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is
located at the tip, inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not
the joint or butt. In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players
liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with
different numbers: When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes,
wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19
oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By
the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought
they would be steel jointed.
 

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
A few years a go I changed out a guy's pin in his cue. The original pin was brass and I changed it to G10...... both were 3/8-10 thread. It was a flat faced Juma joint.

Before I changed the pin I shot a few racks with the brass pin. After I changed to the G10 pin I shot a few more racks.

There is a definite change in the feel. The G10 gave a much crisper feel to the hit and to the feed back in your hand.

It might just be the change in weight but I did actually feel a change.

I build most of my cues with a G10 pin and customers love the hit.

And NO.... I have never seen one break............

Kim
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks Mr. Tucker, very interesting and just as I expected.
Tip, type of ferrule and shaft taper/design is the most important factors in determining the hit.
Another factor that isn't mentioned is hype, merketing and what's popular at the time.
I've been playing pool for a long time and didn't pay much attention to what type of equipment I used, I had a hiatus from pool in my 20's and when I came back, there was so much more focus on equipment.
The last three years or so I've been doing cue repair I have noticed certain shafts, tips etc being the must have item for a few months, before a new/different brand comes along and becomes the new hot must have item.
Repairing all kinds of equipment, I'm in a good position to compare different products, and my impression is that psychology is a huge part of the equation when it comes to equipment...
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here it is. I keep it handy all the time.

Here is a Post from John McChesney circa 1999:

Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered
with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a
steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of
ferrule. We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the
weekend.

The results:
Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about
what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro
(Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue
he liked the most during the attempts: He thought was surely a Meucci,
plastic joint when in reality it was an older Adams with a piloted steel
joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a
steel joint. Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may
sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't
"hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc.
What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not
the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people ref. to the vibration in
the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft
hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary
criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with: The tip
(soft, med or hard) The shaft diameter and density of the wood The taper (or
stiffness of the shaft) To this day, I still don't believe the joint has
much to do with the reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the
3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue plays than anything
else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is
located at the tip, inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not
the joint or butt. In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players
liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with
different numbers: When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes,
wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19
oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By
the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought
they would be steel jointed.
thanks for the post mr. tucker
 

Hardmix

Registered
Kim Bye - I do not believe I am trying to overthink this issue. I am merely trying to identify the "hit" characteristics of joints being used today.

Pertaining to your question of "not quite there". I like a fairly stiff hitting cue that has a active shaft. I have a strong stroke but would rather not have to let it out if not needed.

JC - I agree, if I happened to pick up a cue and start hitting balls and really like the hit, I could care less what kind of pin is in it.

KJ....Lack of understanding...That is 100% correct and why I posed these questions to you the cue makers.

Murray Tucker...thanks for the post, the results do not surprise me at all.


Thanks to all of you for taking the time to weigh in. Like you, I am busy, these questions were nothing more than a attempt to learn something and to save time in my search for a new cue.

Hardmix
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kim Bye - I do not believe I am trying to overthink this issue. I am merely trying to identify the "hit" characteristics of joints being used today.

Pertaining to your question of "not quite there". I like a fairly stiff hitting cue that has a active shaft. I have a strong stroke but would rather not have to let it out if not needed.

This might be a language thing, but what on earth is a active shaft?
Since your cue has wavy joint, I'm guessing it's a Mezz and the shaft is the standard WX700 that comes with most Mezz cues.
If I understand you right, your looking for a shaft that transfers more energy to the ball, yet doesn't feel too stiff?
Do you use a soft tip ? If so, switch to a harder tip.
If you like the taper of the Mezz shaft, you should try the Mezz EX Pro shaft, it has a thin flexible carbon fibre core and a short ferrule for low front end mass, the tip diameter is 12.5mm
The wavy joint is a great pin, those Mezz shafts screw on real tight. The only downside is the semi propritary design, making it hard to find shafts from other makes than Mezz that fit your cue.
I bit the bullet and bought the $400 wavy tap, you might find a cue maker here and there with a Wavy tap, so you can convert any shaft you like to your Mezz cue.
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I bit the bullet and bought the $400 wavy tap, you might find a cue maker here and there with a Wavy tap, so you can convert any shaft you like to your Mezz cue.

For 20 years I've been having taps and dies made. Usually 150 for the tap and 100 for the matching die. I have a good inventory. It's part of my theory. If you want the job. The tool cost is worth it. But the WAVY! I just can't bring myself to bite that bullet. There's logical because of special order and then there's rediculous.
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For 20 years I've been having taps and dies made. Usually 150 for the tap and 100 for the matching die. I have a good inventory. It's part of my theory. If you want the job. The tool cost is worth it. But the WAVY! I just can't bring myself to bite that bullet. There's logical because of special order and then there's rediculous.

Yes I totally agree with you, the cost can in no way be defended. I bought it because I play with a wavy joint Exceed cue and do a bit of work for the Norwegian Mezz importer,and I have had a few people wanting mid-extensions or shafts converted to fit their Mezz or Exceed Wavy joint cues.
Because of the initial cost, I charge a bit more for work involving Wavy joint, so at one point I atleast break even :D
That said, I think the design of the Wavy joint is great, nice and tight, somewhere between Radial and 3/8-10M.
But another bastard joint on the market really pisses me off!
Just look at how confusing this makes it for Hardmix, who asked the question in the forst place.
 

JC

Coos Cues
For 20 years I've been having taps and dies made. Usually 150 for the tap and 100 for the matching die. I have a good inventory. It's part of my theory. If you want the job. The tool cost is worth it. But the WAVY! I just can't bring myself to bite that bullet. There's logical because of special order and then there's rediculous.

The wavy pin was a solution without a problem. To dignify it by buying a tap for $400 will just add insult to injury. Sorry sir, we don't work on cult cues........
 
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Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The wavy pin was a solution without a problem. To dignify it by buying a tap for $400 will just add insult to injury. Sorry sir, we don't work on cult cues........

JC

I like funnies. The cost of a tap from China even being half the cost is just hilarious.
 
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