deflection question(s)

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
because snooker balls are lighter than pool balls
does that mean snooker cues would deflect even less?

does ball size have much to do with it, or is it more about ball weight?

besides the reduced end mass
does increased stiffness from the conical shape of a snooker cue
increase or decrease deflection?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
because snooker balls are lighter than pool balls does that mean snooker cues would deflect even less?
The amount of "CB deflection" (squirt) depends on both the ball's weight/mass and the shaft's "end mass".

Less CB mass = more CB deflection.
Less shaft end mass = less CB deflection.

does ball size have much to do with it, or is it more about ball weight?
Since balls are made of the same material, ball size determines ball weight/mass.

besides the reduced end mass
does increased stiffness from the conical shape of a snooker cue
increase or decrease deflection?
Neither to any significant degree.

pj
chgo
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The amount of "CB deflection" (squirt) depends on both the ball's weight/mass and the shaft's "end mass".

Less CB mass = more CB deflection.
Less shaft end mass = less CB deflection.

thanks pat
so there's cue deflection and cb deflection?
with the snooker cue and snooker ball, the cue deflects less, but the cb deflects more?
I guess this is always the case, if one, then the other?
you can tell by the number of question marks, I'm not sure about any of this
(?)
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
thanks pat
so there's cue deflection and cb deflection?
with the snooker cue and snooker ball, the cue deflects less, but the cb deflects more?
I guess this is always the case, if one, then the other?
you can tell by the number of question marks, I'm not sure about any of this
(?)

Good catch. I was wondering why Patrick answered a different question that you asked. Yes, there are both cue stick deflection and cue ball deflection. Patrick will give you a more thorough answer but I do know that shaft taper and density are two leading factors affecting cue stick deflection as well as the mass of the pool ball. The more the cue stick deflects (or bends) the less cue ball squirt, although I'm not sure how that works with cues with holes in them near the tip, like Predator shafts. Are they bending or is it that there's less mass in the front?

If you were to use a pool playing cue with snooker balls, I would guess that you'd get less cue stick deflection and more cue ball squirt than if you played with regular sized pool balls with the same cue. But that's with the same cue. If you compare snooker cues to pool cues, then it might be a different story due to the different weight and taper of snooker cues.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The more the cue stick deflects (or bends) the less cue ball squirt
It's counterintuitive, but tests show that CB squirt is unaffected by shaft flexibility/deflection. Fortunately for me, that means my 10mm hollow shaft can be tapered conically for stiffness (like a snooker cue) without increasing squirt - it's the lowest-squirting pool cue I've ever seen and still has a nice stiff hit.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's counterintuitive, but tests show that CB squirt is unaffected by shaft flexibility/deflection. Fortunately for me, that means my 10mm hollow shaft can be tapered conically for stifness without increasing squirt - it's the lowest-squirting cue I've ever seen and still has a nice stiff hit.

pj
chgo

This sorta makes no sense. If the shaft doesn't deflect then the cb will surely be forced aside. I thought the whole idea of ld shafts was to decrease end mass to allow the cb to push it aside.

If you had two identically weighted and tapered shafts with equal end masses, and one shaft was made of wood while the other was made of graphite or some other less flexible material, the wood shaft should cause less cb squirt than the stiffer, less flexible shaft, despite their equal end masses.

Wouldn't the wood grain/type also play a role? Or imagine this... Let's say you have a shaft that is not round but more elliptical. Maybe it's 12mm thick from one point of view, but if you turn/twist it 90° it's 14mm thick. The end mass doesn't change, but the flexibility/deflection amount does, depending on how you have the shaft oriented when you strike the cb. If it's 14mm thick then it should flex less and cause more cb squirt than you'd get if you oriented the shaft so that it was 12mm thick upon impact. I know no such testing has been done, but it would definitely highlight the effects of shaft deflection.
 
Last edited:

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's counterintuitive, but tests show that CB squirt is unaffected by shaft flexibility/deflection. Fortunately for me, that means my 10mm hollow shaft can be tapered conically for stiffness (like a snooker cue) without increasing squirt - it's the lowest-squirting pool cue I've ever seen and still has a nice stiff hit.

pj
chgo

So maybe it was because the shafts that bent more were lighter and we thought it was the bend that mattered? I remember back in the 80s when Meuccis first came out. I didn't compare shaft weights against the other cues of that time, but they definitely did bend more and there was less cb squirt.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
This sorta makes no sense. If the shaft doesn't deflect then the cb will surely be forced aside.
I refer you to my auxiliary brain, Dr. Dave's FAQ on the subject:

"As is clear in the the slow-motion videos on the shaft flex and vibration page, the shaft flexes and vibrates mostly after impact (after the CB leaves the tip), due to the momentum imparted to the endmass during tip contact. The flex and vibration mostly occurs after the CB is gone, and it has nothing to do with squirt (CB deflection)."

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
So maybe it was because the shafts that bent more were lighter and we thought it was the bend that mattered?
Probably so.

I remember back in the 80s when Meuccis first came out. I didn't compare shaft weights against the other cues of that time, but they definitely did bend more and there was less cb squirt.
My first cue was a Meucci and I remember it being pretty whippy with a long pro taper - I never measured its squirt.

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
So maybe it was because the shafts that bent more were lighter and we thought it was the bend that mattered? I remember back in the 80s when Meuccis first came out. I didn't compare shaft weights against the other cues of that time, but they definitely did bend more and there was less cb squirt.
I was told that Meucci used a very light ferrule material. That reduced squirt but was not as durable as some other materials. A pro friend of mine who was sponsored said he burned through ferrules on the break sticks.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I refer you to my auxiliary brain, Dr. Dave's FAQ on the subject:

"As is clear in the the slow-motion videos on the shaft flex and vibration page, the shaft flexes and vibrates mostly after impact (after the CB leaves the tip), due to the momentum imparted to the endmass during tip contact. The flex and vibration mostly occurs after the CB is gone, and it has nothing to do with squirt (CB deflection)."

pj
chgo


The slow motion video of side spin shows the shaft immediately getting kicked or pushed off its line as soon as it makes contact with the cb, not after. Which means the shaft had to have flexed and deflected right then, allowing the cb to be less affected. It would be the opposite result if the shaft had zero flexibility. Regardless of its end mass, with zero flexibility the entire weight of the cue would pretty much stay on line and push the cb aside. Well, there'd be a little shaft deflection because the hand is soft and cushiony and will allow the shaft to give a little against the weight of the cb, but overall the full weight of the cue stick would influence the cb's deflection a little more.

I realize this is an unrealistic example because no cue shaft has zero flexibility. It's an extreme example to show that flexibility is an absolute necessity to help decrease cb squirt. If two shafts have identical end masses, but one shaft has maxium flexibility while the other has nearly zero flexibility, the amount of cb squirt will surely be different between the two shafts. Where are the experiments that prove or determine when or how the flexive property of a shaft becomes insignificant to cb squirt? In other words, knowing the two extremes, at what stiffness level does a shaft start to really affect cb squirt, despite low end mass? Just curious.
 
Last edited:

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The slow motion video of side spin shows the shaft immediately getting kicked or pushed off its line as soon as it makes contact with the cb, not after. Which means the shaft had to have flexed and deflected right then, allowing the cb to be less affected. It would be the opposite result if the shaft had zero flexibility. Regardless of its end mass, with zero flexibility the entire weight of the cue would pretty much stay on line and push the cb aside. Well, there'd be a little shaft deflection because the hand is soft and cushiony and will allow the shaft to give a little against the weight of the cb, but overall the full weight of the cue stick would influence the cb's deflection a little more.

I realize this is an unrealistic example because no cue shaft has zero flexibility. It's an extreme example to show that flexibility is an absolute necessity to help decrease cb squirt. If two shafts have identical end masses, but one shaft has maxium flexibility while the other has nearly zero flexibility, the amount of cb squirt will surely be different between the two shafts. Where are the experiments that prove or determine when or how the flexive property of a shaft becomes insignificant to cb squirt? In other words, knowing the two extremes, at what stiffness level does a shaft start to really affect cb squirt, despite low end mass? Just curious.

If two shafts have identical end masses, but one shaft has maxium flexibility while the other has nearly zero flexibility, the amount of cb squirt will surely be different between the two shafts. Where are the experiments that prove or determine when or how the flexive property of a shaft becomes insignificant to cb squirt? In other words, knowing the two extremes, at what stiffness level does a shaft start to really affect cb squirt, despite low end mass? Just curious.

yea..
it seems a shaft with a pro taper that is more flexible
than a shaft with a conical shape that is more stiff
won't "get out of the way" of a cb collision as well as the cone
the flexible shaft will absorb/hug the cb better
so, less deflection that way
?

and I wonder
are both cue and cb deflection measured together?
if they are separate effects
there should be some kind of net measurement for them both, huh?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The slow motion video of side spin shows the shaft immediately getting kicked or pushed off its line as soon as it makes contact with the cb, not after. Which means the shaft had to have flexed and deflected right then, allowing the cb to be less affected.
You'll have to ask Dave about that - I'm only the messenger on this one. I'm betting he's considered at least that much detail.

I think I recall something about the shaft flexing in the opposite direction while in contact with the CB...?

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was told that Meucci used a very light ferrule material. That reduced squirt but was not as durable as some other materials. A pro friend of mine who was sponsored said he burned through ferrules on the break sticks.

The ferrules used to chip a lot. I do remember that. I also recall lots of hairline cracks. But it was a great playing cue for 9 ball. Less cb sqirt on the big shots back then was a revelation. It was the cue of choice for 9 ball players until Southwest came along.
 
Last edited:
Top