SJM Slant on the 2017 Mosconi Cup

sjm said:

If Matchroom announced on Monday that the Mosconi was now 30,000 winner take all, the realist in me says that by Tuesday the Americans and Europeans would agree on a 10,000 saver so the money would be back to 20,00 and 10,000. But let's say there was no saver and it truly was winner take all ... I'm certain that this would make fewer American players care whether they made the team. At very least, making the team now carries a 10,000 award that goes away with winner take all. It takes a lot of invested money (meaning tournament travel and participation costs) to try to make the team, but those that spend the money deserve what can reasonably be viewed as a recoup of their investment. Personally, I think winner take all would be a step backward and could hurt participation in Mosconi ranking events among the most elite American pros.



Unfortunately, there is a HUGE skills gap. Other than future Hall of Famer SVB, American performance in the last few years in rotation games has been terrible across the board in events having deep international fields, whether it is WPA Events, Matchroom events, or the two American events that have deep, international fields. the Derby City 9-ball and the US Open 9-ball. This is not, as you seem to suggest, a cyclical aberration that belies the equality of the players across international boundaries. In fact, US players collectively hit bottom in 2017, failing to win any of the Derby City 9-ball, either of the two Turning Stone events, any of the WPA or Matchroom events, even failing to have a top three finisher in the US Open 9-ball, where Shaw, Kaci and Sanchez-Ruiz swept the medals.

When one watches the Mosconi, it becomes clear, year after year, that there is no area of the game in which American performance is superior to that of Europe, whether it's the break, pocketing, position play, safety play, kicking, jumping, use of two-way shots, or general strategy. No doubt, some of this is a shot conceptualization (meaning shot design and selection) gap, but conceptualization and execution are the two skills that are paramount in our game. The gap in conceptualization skills, in my opinion, is as great as the gap in execution skills.

Do the math. The last five Mosconi Cups combined consist of 75 matches played, 55 of them won by Europe and 20 won by the US. If the teams were truly equal, the odds against Team USA winning 20 matches or fewer of the 75 played would be more than 30,000 to 1 against.

I fear that the biggest threat to the closing of the gap between American pros and others is the incomprehensible insistence of some that there is no skills gap to address. America needs to own the skills gap, and until it does, nothing will jump-start the badly needed re-dedication to all-around excellence in competition, not even a 100,000 per player winner take all Mosconi.

Click to expand...

sjm said:

If Matchroom announced on Monday that the Mosconi was now 30,000 winner take all, the realist in me says that by Tuesday the Americans and Europeans would agree on a 10,000 saver so the money would be back to 20,00 and 10,000. But let's say there was no saver and it truly was winner take all ... I'm certain that this would make fewer American players care whether they made the team. At very least, making the team now carries a 10,000 award that goes away with winner take all. It takes a lot of invested money (meaning tournament travel and participation costs) to try to make the team, but those that spend the money deserve what can reasonably be viewed as a recoup of their investment. Personally, I think winner take all would be a step backward and could hurt participation in Mosconi ranking events among the most elite American pros.



Unfortunately, there is a HUGE skills gap. Other than future Hall of Famer SVB, American performance in the last few years in rotation games has been terrible across the board in events having deep international fields, whether it is WPA Events, Matchroom events, or the two American events that have deep, international fields. the Derby City 9-ball and the US Open 9-ball. This is not, as you seem to suggest, a cyclical aberration that belies the equality of the players across international boundaries. In fact, US players collectively hit bottom in 2017, failing to win any of the Derby City 9-ball, either of the two Turning Stone events, any of the WPA or Matchroom events, even failing to have a top three finisher in the US Open 9-ball, where Shaw, Kaci and Sanchez-Ruiz swept the medals.

When one watches the Mosconi, it becomes clear, year after year, that there is no area of the game in which American performance is superior to that of Europe, whether it's the break, pocketing, position play, safety play, kicking, jumping, use of two-way shots, or general strategy. No doubt, some of this is a shot conceptualization (meaning shot design and selection) gap, but conceptualization and execution are the two skills that are paramount in our game. The gap in conceptualization skills, in my opinion, is as great as the gap in execution skills.

Do the math. The last five Mosconi Cups combined consist of 75 matches played, 55 of them won by Europe and 20 won by the US. If the teams were truly equal, the odds against Team USA winning 20 matches or fewer of the 75 played would be more than 30,000 to 1 against.

I fear that the biggest threat to the closing of the gap between American pros and others is the incomprehensible insistence of some that there is no skills gap to address. America needs to own the skills gap, and until it does, nothing will jump-start the badly needed re-dedication to all-around excellence in competition, not even a 100,000 per player winner take all Mosconi.

Click to expand...

Island Drive said:

Here's a quote from a young man that gets it....

''I hope that you will not treat billiards as just a cash cow of sort.
You didn’t start playing or dreamed of becoming a champion because of money!
The sport isn’t just about money. It is definitely more than that!”

Sounds like a European/Efren/Busty mindset

Click to expand...

jasonlaus said:

Every sport is like that

Click to expand...

marek said:

Mosconi Cup 2017 overall score:
Europe 68
USA 47
Thats not much of a short race, is it?
Or you can look at it another way - Europe has much bigger talent pool to choose from atm, they are WAY better mentally prepared for such high pressure event because of the much tighter competition in Europe. Apart from SVB Europe has slightly better shot makers because of better fundamentals, they play tighter positions because of structured drill practice regime, they are much better tacticians because of super-competitive Eurotour (its just matter of survival)....if you think there is not much of a difference in skill level then you just dont understand the game enough.
Build a new organizing body in USA that unite all the regional tours, build a new structured instructional program for children and places they can practice and play against each other and MAYBE then you will reap the fruits of such effort in about 15 years or so. Until then MC will be one-way story I am afraid..

Click to expand...

Bob Jewett said:

An interesting read.


Your actual score totals may be correct but think about one thing : How many races to 5 comprise that final total score? That is my point, races to 5 where anything can happen and the break format. So many are making these Euros put to be pool gods and I still say hogwash and here's why - all of those Euros that have been smacking us down in the Mosconi Cup come over here and play in a bunch of different tournies and guess what? Those Euros have, do, and will get beat PLENTI of times by Plenti of different US players so it is not as if they are unbeatable. Once more the difference usually being its a race to nine AND ofen winner breaks. Imo that doesn't equate to a skill gap, but rather luck and or strategy deficiency.

I have heard the usual American attitude towards pool referred to as "gambletard". I'm afraid that fits too well.

A few minor points....

American pool publications would be absolutely delighted if a pilsner or even a brown ale were to pay to grace their pages with an advertisement. Total number of alcohol-related adds in the last three issues of Billiards Digest: zero. Total number of beer ads in the latest issue of the regional pool newspaper, On The Break News: zero, although there are a lot of small ads for bars that have tournaments. At one time there was a Gordon's Gin series for the women's tour. I bet they would like to have it back.

A related point about where pool is in American culture is the vanishing University rec center. When I learned to play, a lot of students were introduced to the game right along with calculus and medieval history. Those tables have mostly turned into Starbucks and weight machines.

Corey was not rebuffed by the snooker establishment. Snooker has a "Q School" or qualifying tournament system that anyone can sign up for. He has done so at least twice. If you qualify, you get a two-year pro tour card. He has not qualified yet. I think that Alex Pagulayan has also not qualified but did finish high enough one year that he got to fill in an empty spot in a tournament.

As for your point:

...
Related to which, with a little info and practice, you can crack the standard Master combination padlock in about five minutes. Locks only keep out the stupid thieves.[/QUOTE

Standard combination lock = 5 seconds or less. Any regularly keyed pad lock = 10 seconds or less. These times are with proper tools ( not bolt cutters pr portable cur off wheel lol ) in the hands of a skilled person --- so I hear anyhow!​

Click to expand...

BmoreMoney said:

... Your actual score totals may be correct but think about one thing : How many races to 5 comprise that final total score? ...

Click to expand...

AtLarge said:

Yes, only 15 matches in 2017. Not many.

So how about over the past 11 years? Then we have 186 matches. And Team Europe won 70% more of them than did Team USA.

Click to expand...

sjm said:

Your kind words are appreciated, but we all do our part to make this forum a worthwhile place to visit. Happy new year.

Click to expand...

BmoreMoney said:

Bob Jewett said:

An interesting read.


Your actual score totals may be correct but think about one thing : How many races to 5 comprise that final total score? That is my point, races to 5 where anything can happen and the break format. So many are making these Euros put to be pool gods and I still say hogwash and here's why - all of those Euros that have been smacking us down in the Mosconi Cup come over here and play in a bunch of different tournies and guess what? Those Euros have, do, and will get beat PLENTI of times by Plenti of different US players so it is not as if they are unbeatable. Once more the difference usually being its a race to nine AND ofen winner breaks. Imo that doesn't equate to a skill gap, but rather luck and or strategy deficiency.

I have heard the usual American attitude towards pool referred to as "gambletard". I'm afraid that fits too well.

A few minor points....

American pool publications would be absolutely delighted if a pilsner or even a brown ale were to pay to grace their pages with an advertisement. Total number of alcohol-related adds in the last three issues of Billiards Digest: zero. Total number of beer ads in the latest issue of the regional pool newspaper, On The Break News: zero, although there are a lot of small ads for bars that have tournaments. At one time there was a Gordon's Gin series for the women's tour. I bet they would like to have it back.

A related point about where pool is in American culture is the vanishing University rec center. When I learned to play, a lot of students were introduced to the game right along with calculus and medieval history. Those tables have mostly turned into Starbucks and weight machines.

Corey was not rebuffed by the snooker establishment. Snooker has a "Q School" or qualifying tournament system that anyone can sign up for. He has done so at least twice. If you qualify, you get a two-year pro tour card. He has not qualified yet. I think that Alex Pagulayan has also not qualified but did finish high enough one year that he got to fill in an empty spot in a tournament.

As for your point:

...
Related to which, with a little info and practice, you can crack the standard Master combination padlock in about five minutes. Locks only keep out the stupid thieves.[/QUOTE

Standard combination lock = 5 seconds or less. Any regularly keyed pad lock = 10 seconds or less. These times are with proper tools ( not bolt cutters pr portable cur off wheel lol ) in the hands of a skilled person --- so I hear anyhow!​

Click to expand...

what makes you so sure that the americans would win in longer races? weaker skillset, weaker mindset, but monsters in long races? nope, that doesnt go together!
maybe shane would find some gear and wouldnt look as terrible, but the others?
set up long races between thorpe, hatch and oscar vs jayson, filler or alcaide.....they would get annilihated in any constellation, you can even put corey and bergmann to it and it wouldnt change a thing!
and no, not anything can happen in a rt 5......f.e. americans cant win a rt5 for their life!​

Click to expand...