The Problem With Fundamentals & Mechanics

D

DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
MitchAlsup said:
No elbow movement is optimal on lower energy shots, some movement is allowed on higher energy shots.

2) OB or CB Last. Some instructors and players will tell you that you have to look at the OB last before you fire. Others tell you that CB last is okay if that is best for you. Others say if you align good, aim good, and stroke good you can be looking at the blonde in the 5th row and you will have success on the shot.[/.QUOTE]

Neither, look down the line from CB to contact point on OB.



1,000 hours of practice on a table with fast cloth. Your brain will get it figured out.



practice as long as you can continue to concentrate and stroke well. Stop as soon as you start "Banging balls".



For beginners, dominant eye is very important; once you get 10,000 hours in
in no longer matters.



Beginners should hit the same shot no more than 10 times in a row--lest the get bored and stop concentrating.

Top amateurs should hit shots no more than 100 times for similar reasons.

A professional should keep notes and concentrate during practice on those aspects of his/her game that are not keeping up with the rest of his/her game.
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Says who?????

Again, this is just YOUR opinion. Its the whole point. What one person or instructor or player says another might disagree with.

r/DCP
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lfigueroa

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
bbb said:
Great post Lou
I sent you a greenie
I hope I am not on your ignore list
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If you were in there, I let all the imates out a few months back -- it wasn't accomplishing what I had hoped and have now embarked on a different tack.

So if you were in there, you are now free to run amokked across my screen.

Lou Figueroa
 
DynoDan

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DrCue'sProtege said:
Here's the problem as I see it.

1) Elbow. Some instructors will tell you that you need to keep that elbow up and pinned, little movement. Use a pendulum stroke. Other instructors and great players will tell you Nope, thats Snooker. And that a little elbow drop is fine.
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I have actually had good results (on long shots, using the ‘pendulum’ stroke) by RAISING my elbow (instead of flexing the wrist to ‘dip’ the tip and correct the geometry).
 
Welder84

Welder84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So Lou had a good insight. One thing I will add is you can play a great game without an "Awesome" stroke (just the same motion every shot). Most players (550-700) Fargo players have stroke or mechanic flaws that are visible. After training and working on fundamentals some people just play and let the chips fall were they may. Not everybody has the timing needed for a Pro level stroke. However you can still play very good pool. Add tournaments to your training. Work on smoothing out your rough spots under some pressure. And enjoy the journey! Life is short... Pool instruction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhDc9o9iy4o&t=218s.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
DynoDan said:
I have actually had good results (on long shots, using the ‘pendulum’ stroke) by RAISING my elbow (instead of flexing the wrist to ‘dip’ the tip and correct the geometry).
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Sounds like with a slightly different setup and/or stroke the geometry wouldn't need correcting...?

pj
chgo
 
G

Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
MitchAlsup said:
No elbow movement is optimal on lower energy shots, some movement is allowed on higher energy shots.

2) OB or CB Last. Some instructors and players will tell you that you have to look at the OB last before you fire. Others tell you that CB last is okay if that is best for you. Others say if you align good, aim good, and stroke good you can be looking at the blonde in the 5th row and you will have success on the shot.[/.QUOTE]

Neither, look down the line from CB to contact point on OB

1,000 hours of practice on a table with fast cloth. Your brain will get it figured out.



practice as long as you can continue to concentrate and stroke well. Stop as soon as you start "Banging balls".



For beginners, dominant eye is very important; once you get 10,000 hours in
in no longer matters.



Beginners should hit the same shot no more than 10 times in a row--lest the get bored and stop concentrating.

Top amateurs should hit shots no more than 100 times for similar reasons.

A professional should keep notes and concentrate during practice on those aspects of his/her game that are not keeping up with the rest of his/her game.
Click to expand...

Meh, nope.

I disagree with ‘stop when you start banging balls’. This is when you are having fun, stop overthinking and get in a groove. It’s the same when someone noodles on a guitar or let’s loose when dancing, etc. You get into your own Head space and get a feel for what you are doing. Your natural strengths emerge. Sometimes I’m ready to call it quits and just banG in everything...every ball becomes the cue ball...no rules, no thinking about stance, stroke, etc. 30 minutes later and still having fun.
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lfigueroa

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Welder84 said:
So Lou had a good insight. One thing I will add is you can play a great game without an "Awesome" stroke (just the same motion every shot). Most players (550-700) Fargo players have stroke or mechanic flaws that are visible. After training and working on fundamentals some people just play and let the chips fall were they may. Not everybody has the timing needed for a Pro level stroke. However you can still play very good pool. Add tournaments to your training. Work on smoothing out your rough spots under some pressure. And enjoy the journey! Life is short... Pool instruction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhDc9o9iy4o&t=218s.
Click to expand...


This is a good point.

We're not all going to ever achieve pro level play. What is important, at whatever level you're at, is to achieve a level of play you can realistically achieve, max out, and maintain.

But there' s a problem with that in that the carrot (of better play) will always be hanging just out of reach of the donkey (that's you and and me).

We will always believe we can play better. Just a little bit better at least. Whip the balls in with greater precision and power. Make the pockets moan with the power we hit them with. (OK, a bit too sexual, lol.) But you get my meaning. Playing good, regardless of your level of play, is a constantly moving target.

Better is always... just beyond.

Lou Figueroa
 
T

tableroll

Rolling Thunder
Silver Member
I have tried both ways. Looking at the object ball last works much better for me than looking at the cue ball last.
 
9BallKY

9BallKY

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lfigueroa said:
This is a good point.

We're not all going to ever achieve pro level play. What is important, at whatever level you're at, is to achieve a level of play you can realistically achieve, max out, and maintain.

But there' s a problem with that in that the carrot (of better play) will always be hanging just out of reach of the donkey (that's you and and me).

We will always believe we can play better. Just a little bit better at least. Whip the balls in with greater precision and power. Make the pockets moan with the power we hit them with. (OK, a bit too sexual, lol.) But you get my meaning. Playing good, regardless of your level of play, is a constantly moving target.

Better is always... just beyond.

Lou Figueroa
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This is a very good point. Most players will never reach pro level regardless of how much instruction or how much they practice. We can always strive to be better and there’s nothing wrong with that. Even a player with a 760 fargorate has room for improvement. There’s that carrot hanging in front of them even

Reality is that for most of us that we are only going to get to a certain point. Why is there players that have played all their life and are still C players. I know a guy who has played probably 45 years. He’s not a bad player but he’s been at the same level for as long as I can remember.
 
Ratta

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
lfigueroa said:
There are no points awarded in pool for form.

IOWs, it's not like ballroom dancing. The only things that matter are: did the OB go into the pocket and did the CB go where you wanted to for the next shot. (Yes, I know but allow me the poetic license.) So to that end the secret to pool is discovering what works for you. No one is going to hang around long enough to help you find that so it won't be found during a four hour lesson. It's what you have to learn for yourself through self-awareness and introspection and hours on the table.

Shoot a shot you missed a 1,00 times? No. Shoot a shot you missed until you understand why you missed it? Yes.

The problem, as I see it, is that you want someone else to solve a mystery that only you can unlock.

Lou Figueroa
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"Tap Tap Tap Tap'

Very well chosen words Lou!
 
DynoDan

DynoDan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Could be...

With a shorter bridge you'd have to raise your elbow to hit the same spot on the CB.

pj
chgo
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Might also have something to do with increased muscle tension. Raising the elbow may produce associated stiffening of the lower arm/wrist joint, inhibiting sideways deviation of the stroke (?). Plus, the raised elbow could induce more cue ‘dip’, unconsciously creating enough draw to cause some CB float/drag, hindering the unintended side english that might result in a deviation from the aimed contact point (?).
 
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C

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
DrCue'sProtege said:
Here's the problem as I see it.

1) Elbow. Some instructors will tell you that you need to keep that elbow up and pinned, little movement. Use a pendulum stroke. Other instructors and great players will tell you Nope, thats Snooker. And that a little elbow drop is fine.

2) OB or CB Last. Some instructors and players will tell you that you have to look at the OB last before you fire. Others tell you that CB last is okay if that is best for you. Others say if you align good, aim good, and stroke good you can be looking at the blonde in the 5th row and you will have success on the shot.

3) Speed. Some instructors teach speed control one way and other instructors and players teach it another way. Some use table lengths to gauge speed. Others use diamonds. Other top instructors and players say you HAVE to actually hit a shot in order to have good speed control.

4) Time & Effort. Some say to get better you need to practice 6-8 hours a day and its just plain work. Some say you cant concentrate that long and you need to limit sessions to about 15-20 minutes at a time.

5) Eyes. Some say the Dominant Eye is very important. Other top level players and instructors say Nope, the eyes work together.

6) Repetition. Some instructors and players say if you miss a shot you should shoot it 1,000 times or get to the point where you know you wont miss it again. Other instructors and players will tell you not to dwell on that shot, focus on your mechanics the next time you have it.

I am quite certain there are alot of other areas of the game where instructors have different opinions, where players have different opinions. So, bottom line is this.........

WHO DO YOU BELIEVE????????

r/DCP
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What I believe is simple. Skill triumpths its over luck most of the time. Winners never quit, quitters never win. Some people talk, others do. Talkers never improve.

Most of what I call very very very good pool players work at pool like a job, they practice, and work hard on skill building.

Instructors are like anything else, no instructor will be about to sell their ideas to 110"% of their students.

Last people hate boring practice, drills, like the guy who is a mason by trade, can not be a mason with out aches & pains. Work on improvement at time is boring, sand sometime hurts.
 
BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
DrCue'sProtege said:
Here's the problem as I see it.

1) Elbow. Some instructors will tell you that you need to keep that elbow up and pinned, little movement. Use a pendulum stroke. Other instructors and great players will tell you Nope, thats Snooker. And that a little elbow drop is fine.

2) OB or CB Last. Some instructors and players will tell you that you have to look at the OB last before you fire. Others tell you that CB last is okay if that is best for you. Others say if you align good, aim good, and stroke good you can be looking at the blonde in the 5th row and you will have success on the shot.

3) Speed. Some instructors teach speed control one way and other instructors and players teach it another way. Some use table lengths to gauge speed. Others use diamonds. Other top instructors and players say you HAVE to actually hit a shot in order to have good speed control.

4) Time & Effort. Some say to get better you need to practice 6-8 hours a day and its just plain work. Some say you cant concentrate that long and you need to limit sessions to about 15-20 minutes at a time.

5) Eyes. Some say the Dominant Eye is very important. Other top level players and instructors say Nope, the eyes work together.

6) Repetition. Some instructors and players say if you miss a shot you should shoot it 1,000 times or get to the point where you know you wont miss it again. Other instructors and players will tell you not to dwell on that shot, focus on your mechanics the next time you have it.

I am quite certain there are alot of other areas of the game where instructors have different opinions, where players have different opinions. So, bottom line is this.........

WHO DO YOU BELIEVE????????

r/DCP
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Answer 1: What do the majority of playing pros do? They look at o.b. last, drop the elbow instead of pinning a pure pendulum, etc.

Answer 2: What do teachers or pros say or do that is myth (not related to facts of anatomy, geometry or physics)?

Answer 3: Which teachers get their students to improve fast? Which say instead "I know this is new for you, so if you do it for 2 hours a day for 6 months, you'll improve"?

Answer 4: I believe in me and some fellow teachers. I'm aware of my biases and cognitive dissonance and experiment some, but mostly teach things that get students to improve very fast.
 
Icon of Sin

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
What works for some wont work for others and vice versa... you need to be open to trying all styles, but conscious enough to know if it doesn't work for you.
 
S

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
tableroll said:
I have tried both ways. Looking at the object ball last works much better for me than looking at the cue ball last.
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Which, is a function of what you prepared. Ideally to look at the cue ball last (notice this is a deliberate quest) you'd prepare your shot routine to land in the shot zone. Note also the box labeled "prepare" contains many parts that need assembly. Rinse, repeat until you can do it perfectly every time. If you're successful at this approach, you simply 'take the shot' as they say in the movies.

I think most would opt for looking at the object ball; glance at the pocket too if it's visible. Confidence thing probably.

I work on both; cueball for shot precision and object ball for concerns like speed and exit direction/carom etc...
 
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