Mosconi's 526 is not the highest run

Bob Jewett said:

An exhibition is announced in advance and open to the press and public. A practice run is just some guy shooting down at the pool hall or maybe in his basement like he always does on Thursdays.

If you showed up at Easy Street prior to normal opening, you would have been welcomed in to watch. John is sponsored by Easy Street. There was no admission charge.

When John was shooting at Bull Shooters in Phoenix, it was during normal business hours. There was no admission charge.

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Ok cool... So all I have to do is announce here on the forum and maybe on my local hall's fb page that I'll be attempting a high run in 14.1 at my place and all are invited to watch.

It doesn't matter if anyone that knows a lick about 14.1 shows up. Just that the open invite is there and I record the results.

Good to know...

Bob Jewett said:

In his book, Eufemia states that the 625 was in an exhibition. The records committee decided there was not enough documentation to support the claim.

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Unfortunately, this is accurate.

My father was good friends with Mike, and Mike acknowledged that, as far as he knew, nobody but himself witnessed the run from beginning to end. However, Mike felt that a "group attestation" should have been enough. In other words, if someone saw the first 250, another saw the run from 150 to 400, and someone else saw it from 300 until it ended, that would constitute an eyewitness account of the run. The recordkeepers did not see it that way.

More than a few felt that Brunswick, the sponsor of Mosconi's exhibition tour, did their part to ensure that Mike's run was not recognized as the record, but what happened 60 years ago is something we'll probably never know.

The_JV said:

So what's so different between "practice" and "exhibition" runs that makes one more valid than another...?

As long as the same rules are followed. ...and it's documented (aka: video'd) What's the diff...?

JS's 626 for example was started in a closed pool room prior to opening. So how is that an exhibition performance..? Did his buddies pay to watch him play before the doors opened...?

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Here is the difference. Earl "made" a million for his 10 racks. I bet you a dozen pros do that every month in practice but I've never seen anyone run out a set in a tourney except Kaci. How and when matters. Documentation or better yet video (this is a come lately thing) matters.

JS record is now the high water mark. Mosconi's record is one for the ages. It stood for a long time for a reason. Both accomplishments don't diminish the other.

Here is the difference. Earl "made" a million for his 10 racks.

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Technically you are correct, the prize was for running 10 in sequence. But Earl actually had to run 11 racks because he racked one himself, which didn't count.

smt

Ssonerai said:

Technically you are correct, the prize was for running 10 in sequence. But Earl actually had to run 11 racks because he racked one himself, which didn't count.

smt

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Earl racked the first six racks and i racked the last five. Earl never made the nine ball on the break in any of my racks. He did make it twice during the first six racks. He did not know he needed to run another rack after he made the combination on the nine in rack #10. CJ told me to keep on racking since they only had video of Earl running four racks (racks 7-10) with me racking, and the rules of the insurance premium required a neutral racker for the last five racks. So I racked again and Earl broke and ran rack #11. CJ's wife (Lisa I think was her name) stopped taping after that rack. After rack #11 Earl and Nick Mannino (his opponent) racked for themselves and Earl won the match 13-1. All the matches in this tournament were Races to 13.

jay helfert said:

Earl racked the first six racks and i racked the last five. Earl never made the nine ball on the break in any of my racks. He did make it twice during the first six racks. He did not know he needed to run another rack after he made the combination on the nine in rack #10. CJ told me to keep on racking since they only had video of Earl running four racks (racks 7-10) with me racking, and the rules of the insurance premium required a neutral racker for the last five racks. So I racked again and Earl broke and ran rack #11. CJ's wife (Lisa I think was her name) stopped taping after that rack. After rack #11 Earl and Nick Mannino (his opponent) racked for themselves and Earl won the match 13-1. All the matches in this tournament were Races to 13.

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I was in Dallas that day and I am pretty sure that event was races to 15 at least that's what I remember lol

terryhanna said:

I was in Dallas that day and I am pretty sure that event was races to 15 at least that's what I remember lol

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For some reason 13 sticks in my head. CJ would remember for sure. So you were in the crowd that watched Earl's last few racks, right.

There are a lot of athletes who can do personal best that can beat official records. But to put that on record books, you need to do it in an officially recognized tournament. Do it under pressure against the best in the world.

sjm said:

Unfortunately, this is accurate.

My father was good friends with Mike, and Mike acknowledged that, as far as he knew, nobody but himself witnessed the run from beginning to end. However, Mike felt that a "group attestation" should have been enough. In other words, if someone saw the first 250, another saw the run from 150 to 400, and someone else saw it from 300 until it ended, that would constitute an eyewitness account of the run. The recordkeepers did not see it that way.

More than a few felt that Brunswick, the sponsor of Mosconi's exhibition tour, did their part to ensure that Mike's run was not recognized as the record, but what happened 60 years ago is something we'll probably never know.

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I would be taken aback if anyone who signed the affidavit attesting to Mosconis run , saw every shot, even the referee, who I met and had a chance to speak to personally in the 1990s
He refused to talk about it at all. Nada, zilch, nothing.

parvus1202 said:

There are a lot of athletes who can do personal best that can beat official records. But to put that on record books, you need to do it in an officially recognized tournament. Do it under pressure against the best in the world.

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What you talking bout, willis?

You are just making stuff up.

Nick B said:

Here is the difference. Earl "made" a million for his 10 racks. I bet you a dozen pros do that every month in practice but I've never seen anyone run out a set in a tourney except Kaci. How and when matters. Documentation or better yet video (this is a come lately thing) matters.

JS record is now the high water mark. Mosconi's record is one for the ages. It stood for a long time for a reason. Both accomplishments don't diminish the other.

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My comments about practice vs exhibition were leading, and you kinda fed right into my yet to be made argument.

The JS run wasn't in competition like Earl's 10pack for a million. It wasn't in any level of competition at all. He simply announced that at some point he may trip into a high run attempt and people were more than welcome to watch. He may have capped out at 50 a dozen times, but it was what it could be.

Earl was under performance pressure because of the tournament, and he had only this tournament to manage the 10 pk. Which also had to land within the length of a set. If he, or any other didn't pull it off over the course of that single tourney, then no million. How many attempts "in exhibition" did JS take before reaching his 626..? Did the BCA or any other organizing body limit his attempts...? "You get only a block of 2 days to attempt the record once a year" or anything like such...?

The only performance pressure placed on JS was what he placed on himself.

On the flip side of that argument. What 14.1 competitions have a match length that exceeds 526 points..? I know next to nothing of this game, and I'm willing to bet there isn't a single one. That means there could be no "in competition" attempt at the 562 record, (akin to Earl's 10pk). Lets pretend that the TD would be willing to allow a player(s) to delay his tournament by several hours to attempt the record. Once you got passed the tournament finish line (150?) then where's this in competition pressure coming from...?

Thus far, the only difference between practice and exhibition is open viewing. As long as all the rules are followed and documented proof can be brought forth. I struggle with why a properly executed and video'd practice run isn't accepted as a record.

Despite the fact that I'm arguing the JS run was nothing more then partially witnessed practice run. As far as I'm concerned, I believe his 626 is as valid as any other. Once of course it has been proven that the rules were strictly followed and his video proof has passed the smell test.

If other "practice" (aka: not publicly announced and viewable in real time) attempts can be proven to have followed the games rules, and also have video footage, they should be just as valid as Mosconi's or JS's.

To paraphrase someone else on the forum:
700 balls is 700 balls....

In "within" competition is an impossibility. ...and the difference between exhibition and practice boils down to amount of subscribers to you YouTube account

bah..........

The_JV said:

Thus far, the only difference between practice and exhibition is open viewing. As long as all the rules are followed and documented proof can be brought forth. I struggle with why a properly executed and video'd practice run isn't accepted as a record.

Despite the fact that I'm arguing the JS run was nothing more then partially witnessed practice run. As far as I'm concerned, I believe his 626 is as valid as any other. Once of course it has been proven that the rules were strictly followed and his video proof has passed the smell test.

If other "practice" (aka: not publicly announced and viewable in real time) attempts can be proven to have followed the games rules, and also have video footage, they should be just as valid as Mosconi's or JS's.

To paraphrase someone else on the forum:
700 balls is 700 balls....

In "within" competition is an impossibility. ...and the difference between exhibition and practice boils down to amount of subscribers to you YouTube account

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In records context matters though. I can understand the argument that it is a exhibition because it was announced and it was open to viewing. But the difference between Mosconi's record and John's is the format. Mosconi would play a 150 point game and sometimes continue the run after finishing the game.

Since a 30-50 ball run is a miscue to top 14.1 players, that means Mosconi only had a handful of chances each match to run a big number. That's a big difference between setting up a breakshot and trying endlessly.

It's similar to the high run competition at the Derby City Classic. It's still technically a competition, but the 200+ runs that happen there don't supercede Darren Appleton's 200 ball run that he made in a match.

Like I said in another post, John has a record imo. But it's not the same record as Mosconi. For me he has the highest verified run. I know that Cranefield managed a couple runs over 700, but there is just so little information about it.

The_JV said:

The only performance pressure placed on JS was what he placed on himself.

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When numbers go high 14.1 will bring pressure naturally.

terryhanna said:

I was in Dallas that day and I am pretty sure that event was races to 15 at least that's what I remember lol

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Except for the last few, the races were to 15 (Strickland beat Mannino 15-1). Strickland beat Wiley 11-9 to take the hot seat, Wiley beat Potier 11-10 in the semifinals, and Wiley beat Strickland 11-6 in the finals.

AtLarge said:

Except for the last few, the races were to 15 (Strickland beat Mannino 15-1). Strickland beat Wiley 11-9 to take the hot seat, Wiley beat Potier 11-10 in the semifinals, and Wiley beat Strickland 11-6 in the finals.

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Maybe CJ should have asked Earl if he wanted to play for the $1M before the finals.