Aiming with english, did you know...? (A little fun fact for you)

(((Satori)))

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We all know about the three factors in aiming with english, throw, deflection, & curve, whatever you want to call them. But did you know that a level cue with max top & side english will cause the cueball to deflect and curve in the same direction, opposite of the side of english you apply? Yep, the cueball will curve away from the line and not back into it.

Just throwing that little fun fact out there, I'm not even sure if this is the right place for it.
 
Last edited:

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
I think it would be best for you to describe to us what you define throw, deflection and curve first.

A common reference point of these three aspects will help in understanding.




We all know about the three factors in aiming with english, throw, deflection, & curve, whatever you want to call them. But did you know that a level cue with max top & side english will cause the cueball to deflect and curve in the same direction, opposite of the side of english you apply? Yep, the cueball will curve away from the line and not back into it.

Just throwing that little fun fact out there, I'm not even sure if this is the right place for it.
 

(((Satori)))

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My first thought is that you would have deflection but no curve.

There is actually curve too it's not just the deflection. And, as I said, when using maximum top and side with a level cue, the curve is in the opposite direction that most people would suspect. The curve is a slight movement from left to right when using left side english. And again that is curve on top of the deflection.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is actually curve too it's not just the deflection. And, as I said, when using maximum top and side with a level cue, the curve is in the opposite direction that most people would suspect. The curve is a slight movement from left to right when using left side english. And again that is curve on top of the deflection.

Well, that's something I never knew. I'm finding it a little hard to believe, but if there's a scientific explanation, I'd sure like to know.
 

(((Satori)))

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, that's something I never knew. I'm finding it a little hard to believe, but if there's a scientific explanation, I'd sure like to know.

It is something that I was taught a long time ago from a very good player and I have observed with my eyes to be true. Maybe fact is not the right word but I 100% believe it is true. It would be cool to see Bob and Dave prove or disprove it.

Actually the curve is not enlighten to need to factor into aiming but I do believe that cueing causes a very slight curve in the opposite direction.
 
Last edited:

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is actually curve too it's not just the deflection. And, as I said, when using maximum top and side with a level cue, the curve is in the opposite direction that most people would suspect. The curve is a slight movement from left to right when using left side english. And again that is curve on top of the deflection.

I think that would be dependent on the speed of the shot. If I hit the shot with a fast speed, its going to deflect....period. At a slower speed the QB could curve back opposite of the spin used. This is very dependent of the speed used.

John
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is why I recommend a slight angle for enhanced accuracy with TOI

We all know about the three factors in aiming with english, throw, deflection, & curve, whatever you want to call them. But did you know that a level cue with max top & side english will cause the cueball to deflect and curve in the same direction, opposite of the side of english you apply? Yep, the cueball will curve away from the line and not back into it.

Just throwing that little fun fact out there, I'm not even sure if this is the right place for it.

The cue angle is an important part of consistency and you are right, a level cue deflects with no "swerve". I've had this conversation on more than one occasion, the "swerve" is from elevating the cue and/or pivoting, but when the cue is level it deflects and doesn't come back. This is why I recommend a slight angle for enhanced accuracy with 'The Touch of Inside'....it keeps the cue ball from deflecting out of control.

The pure deflection is what you're seeing, the spin isn't really making it curve more, it's just not stopping it so it continues (in the same direction through momentum), especially if you hit with an above average speed. Just like the example set forth by the masse', the more the angle, the more the spin will effect the line of the cue ball path.

On high speed shots using a level cue you actually align/aim at the same spot on the object ball as where your tip is contacting the cue ball.....this means when cutting the ball 15 degrees to the right, you actually aim/align to the right side of the object ball. This is the only situation that this happens from my experience, and one of those "secrets" that few player (except champions) "real eyes". 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

(((Satori)))

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The cue angle is an important part of consistency and you are right, a level cue deflects with no "swerve". I've had this conversation on more than one occasion, the "swerve" is from elevating the cue and/or pivoting, but when the cue is level it deflects and doesn't come back. This is why I recommend a slight angle for enhanced accuracy with 'The Touch of Inside'....it keeps the cue ball from deflecting out of control.

The pure deflection is what you're seeing, the spin isn't really making it curve more, it's just not stopping it so it continues (in the same direction through momentum), especially if you hit with an above average speed. Just like the example set forth by the masse', the more the angle, the more the spin will effect the line of the cue ball path.

On high speed shots using a level cue you actually align/aim at the same spot on the object ball as where your tip is contacting the cue ball.....this means when cutting the ball 15 degrees to the right, you actually aim/align to the right side of the object ball. This is the only situation that this happens from my experience, and one of those "secrets" that few player (except champions) "real eyes". 'The Game is the Teacher'

Thanks C.J.

I'm still not convinced that there is no curve to the outside though when using maximum top/side cueing. You might be right though, maybe since I was told that by someone I respect I see the deflection and I then "see" the curve too, in my mind.

I was curious if you have ever heard of this.

I am also curious if Bob Jewett, or anyone else for that matter, has ever heard of this. I don't think there is much knowledge about the game that has not passed through either yours or Bob's ears.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
It took me a long time in my career to figure this one out.

Thanks C.J.

I'm still not convinced that there is no curve to the outside though when using maximum top/side cueing. You might be right though, maybe since I was told that by someone I respect I see the deflection and I then "see" the curve too, in my mind.

I was curious if you have ever heard of this.

I am also curious if Bob Jewett, or anyone else for that matter, has ever heard of this. I don't think there is much knowledge about the game that has not passed through either yours or Bob's ears.

There's one shot in particular that I've had to deal with this phenomenon and control it - that's the force follow three rail shot with inside english (around a "half ball" hit).

I make sure my cue is level and like I said in my last post I have to align to the "wrong" side of the object ball (the side opposite the one I'm hitting).....if I align to the center as usual I'll over-cut the ball every time.....it took me a long time in my career to figure this out. Some older champion told me, I can't remember who it was, maybe Wade Crane,

I used to make it (by educated guess), but only when in "dead stroke" - mainly by aiming to undercut it 2-3 inches inside the pocket, this works, however, the way I'm describing is a more accurate way to play it. imho
 

theUBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The same is true for a draw shot with max. outside English, rather level cue and very fast speed on distances of 1 to ca.3 diamonds between CB and OB imho.
I align edge to edge (same edge on CB and OB) on these shots with an only very slightly angled cue tip and apply max outside spin while paying attention to accelerate nicely with my cue on the shot on flat shot angles.
Alignment on steeper angles during stance is center to edge.
 

theUBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Notice: I play with a 11.3 mm tip that has very little deflection-so for shafts with more deflection adjustments are necessary!
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The same is true for a draw shot with max. outside English, rather level cue and very fast speed on distances of 1 to ca.3 diamonds between CB and OB imho.
I align edge to edge (same edge on CB and OB) on these shots with an only very slightly angled cue tip and apply max outside spin while paying attention to accelerate nicely with my cue on the shot on flat shot angles.
Alignment on steeper angles during stance is center to edge.

Which edge?
 

theUBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey CJ
When I cut the OB to the left I align the left edge oft CB with the left edge of the OB with my eye in my stance Position on flat cut angle shots and vice versa.
Did you find time to test my UBC and Truesight? Would be nice to get some feedback...:)
Gesendet von meinem FUSION mit Tapatalk 2
 

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We all know about the three factors in aiming with english, throw, deflection, & curve, whatever you want to call them. But did you know that a level cue with max top & side english will cause the cueball to deflect and curve in the same direction, opposite of the side of english you apply? Yep, the cueball will curve away from the line and not back into it.

Just throwing that little fun fact out there, I'm not even sure if this is the right place for it.

You can demonstrate something like this by placing the cue ball on the rail, shoot past the side pocket with inside English. The cue will squirt towards the center of the table and then swerve back to the rail if you hit it right. Max top and outside are not needed and as Neil points out, Dave shows the effect in his article. Then it is a matter of learning how much effect is needed for different amounts of spin and power. With a masse type of shot you can do many interesting things. It depends upon what you want and upon your ability to control the cue ball.
 
Last edited:

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can demonstrate something like this by placing the cue ball on the rail, shoot past the side pocket with inside English. The cue will squirt towards the center of the table and then swerve back to the rail if you hit it right. Max top and outside are not needed and as Neil points out, Dave shows the effect in his article. Then it is a matter of learning how much effect is needed for different amounts of spin and power. With a masse type of shot you can do many interesting things. It depends upon what you want and upon your ability to control the cue ball.

Joe, I think what he's trying to say is that in addition to squirt, the cb will also swerve in the same direction as the cb is squirting. How could that be possible? There is probably a misunderstanding somewhere, either in how I (and maybe others) are interpreting his post or in how he is understanding what was explained to him. I'm just not sure.
 

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks Fran, I misunderstood his statement. Sorry. I don't know how to do what he has described either.
 

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There's one shot in particular that I've had to deal with this phenomenon and control it - that's the force follow three rail shot with inside english (around a "half ball" hit).

I make sure my cue is level and like I said in my last post I have to align to the "wrong" side of the object ball (the side opposite the one I'm hitting).....if I align to the center as usual I'll over-cut the ball every time.....it took me a long time in my career to figure this out. Some older champion told me, I can't remember who it was, maybe Wade Crane,

I used to make it (by educated guess), but only when in "dead stroke" - mainly by aiming to undercut it 2-3 inches inside the pocket, this works, however, the way I'm describing is a more accurate way to play it. imho

CJ,

I can appreciate what you've been doing for pool, but don't give the farm away! :grin: I might have to play somebody who reads this!

Best,
Mike
 

(((Satori)))

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joe, I think what he's trying to say is that in addition to squirt, the cb will also swerve in the same direction as the cb is squirting. How could that be possible? There is probably a misunderstanding somewhere, either in how I (and maybe others) are interpreting his post or in how he is understanding what was explained to him. I'm just not sure.

Hi Ms. Crimi,

I am aware of the conventional wisdom and know everything Neil has posted. It is not believable to some I know but there is no misunderstanding , you have what I meant 100% and I know that I did not misinterpret the teaching when I learned it. It was taught to me by Buddy Dennis. Try it out with a medium speed stroke and see the results. Level cue, max top/side.
 
Top