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06-14-2019, 04:24 PM

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06-15-2019, 01:01 PM

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No. I meant literally on paper you can’t draw it. Or at least if anyone has been able to accurately draw it on paper I haven’t seen it.
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06-15-2019, 01:21 PM

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06-15-2019, 10:30 PM

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Originally Posted by ENGLISH! View Post
Your PM box is Full.
I was on a plane all day. I got your pm though. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree for the time being.


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06-15-2019, 10:53 PM

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Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
No. I meant literally on paper you can’t draw it. Or at least if anyone has been able to accurately draw it on paper I haven’t seen it.
It is objective but can't be drawn on paper or shown in animation.
Imho, there is some contradiction in there.

Years ago, people claimed they learned it over the phone.


  
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06-16-2019, 02:48 AM

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Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post

Years ago, people claimed they learned it over the phone.
It's a fact. Hal was the greatest. He taught a rudimentary condensed version that immediately got attention because it seemed impossible balls could be going in while lining up (aka aiming) in such a different fashion. But they did. One after another. The curiosity factor was great along with the results. The more interested a person was and wanted to learn was when Hal took the time to give more and more a little at a time. He never pushed, forced, or jammed it down someone's throat. It's called an aiming system but it would be more appropriate if referred to as an ALIGNMENT METHOD with more focus on the balls and not much on the pocket. Always was and still is.

Probably never gave you the time of day though.


Hal reminded me of the old blind martial arts expert, Master Po, teaching a young Caine in the TV series Kung Foo.

Master Po: Close your eyes. What do you hear?

Young Caine: I hear the water, I hear the birds.

Po: Do you hear your own heartbeat?

Caine: No.

Po: Do you hear the grasshopper which is at your feet?

Caine: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?

Po: Young man, how is it that you do not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbNCBVzPYak

This is exactly how it was with Hal and the same response by those who don't get it...never get it.

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06-16-2019, 04:54 AM

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Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
Fair enough.

But even that statement is designed (intentionally or not) to get under people's skin.

You say "a few vocal proponents who can't seem to understand the most basic common sense." I assume I'm included in that and when you said I was being dishonest I lost my cool. If you want to have civil conversations you can't throw those cutesy insults in there.

I was answering the question I thought you were going to next. I understood your point with the rods and assumed you knew I did so I went to the next step.

I have an undergraduate degree in Math/Computer science. First two years were physics before I switched. I have a graduate degree in a very mathematical discipline. Both from a top engineering school. I've done extensive 3d modeling and co-authored a CAD system when I was in college. Believe me I can understand any math/physics/science that you can throw at me. Or Dan or PJ. I've met and played with PJ and we get along just fine. Dr. Dave is another story. I like him and his posts but generally I don't want to work hard enough to understand the math that he throws around. But I could if I wasn't so dang lazy.

On paper, CTE does not work. We all agree on that. Not one person has been able to draw a diagram of CTE that works and is geometrically correct.

But that's not relevant because it isn't supposed to work on paper. It is supposed to work in real life. In three dimensions.

I don't know if it does. I gave up on it years (decades?) ago because I thought there was no way it works. Because I tried to draw it on paper. Because I'm an engineer/math guy.

Then at an AZB meetup I met an AZB member who used CTE and he showed me a little of it. Literally 3-4 minutes. One aim point and the pivot. Something clicked and I was fascinated because it *shouldn't* work but it did. I watched Stan's videos and I had some of the same problems you do with them.

I love Stan (even though I've never met him, I admire his dedication) and I couldn't figure out CTE from the videos.

So I started thinking about how it might work. I started looking at ways that it could work. And you know what happened? I started seeing it and making balls. I remember as clearly as if it were yesterday. I was trying it and a guy came up and asked me to play. I said sure and just decided to use what I was doing (CTE-ish?) on every shot. He racked 8-ball. I broke and ran out. He racked again and went to get a drink. I broke and ran ANOTHER rack. Not even looking at anything but the perceptions and pivoting to the spot. I was playing with a house cue.

The guy I was playing looked at me and turned and walked away without saying a word.

That night I was shooting balls in like a fiend. From everywhere. Straight in, slight angle, hard back cuts full table length. I wasn't even bothering to play position because I knew I could make ANY shot.

What I was doing was NOT CTE. Or at least a very limited version of CTE. I know that now. But it worked really, really well. And I think CTE probably works better. What I've learned since tells me that it does work very well.

This week, after three months of travel and hardly playing I went to practice with a buddy. I couldn't make a ball. Then I decided to use CTESP (CTE sixpack) and suddenly everything starts working and I ran a table of 8-ball.

I don't use CTESP all the time because I have been so busy with work and caring for a sick relative the last few years that I haven't had time to really get used to doing it. So I generally use my old aiming system and Poolology if I can't see something right.

I think the answer to your question is that I look for reasons it can work and you (all) look for reasons it won't work.

One of the best banking systems for me is one where you just visualize the path of the ball and it lights up for you.

Same for putting in golf. And I've had 9 holes of golf where I only putted 11 times...And shot 29 (par 36) in case you think I had a lot of chip shots.

Obviously there is something else going on there. Something in the brain. And yet, it works.

What I was trying to explain earlier is that I think the magic happens in the pivot and the perception.

The perception changes. Even in your question you asked me earlier. If you move your eyes right or left the convergence of the rods moves to different places.

So yeah. I believe that there is something there. And I can't wait to see what Stan has been working on because I'm curious about it. I want to explore this mystery. My mind is always looking for patterns and finding them where most don't even look.

That doesn't make me unable to understand common sense. It makes me willing to go beyond it.
This is probably the most reasonable and well thought out post I've seen from a CTE supporter in a long time. The more I read into it, however, the more I realized that you are singing the praises of an aiming system that is NOT the controversial one that Stan teaches. You said you use your own version of CTE and play well with it. OK, that's great but what does it have to do with the argument that goes on here? Let me ask you this -- does CTESP make use of the contact point? Can you give us a short description of what CTESP involves?

In reading some of your previous posts to English and BC21 it occurred to me that you really don't understand Stan's version of CTE. You've said repeatedly that you don't fully get it and that the "magic" must happen in the pivot. I agree. The pivot step may well be what makes it work for some people, but it isn't magic. It is simply the player adjusting their stroke either while getting down on the shot or during the stroke. CTE gets you close to the pocket but the "magic" part puts it in the hole. Ever wonder why it takes months for CTE users to get it and then it all clicks? I think it is because their brain is finally figuring out how to pocket the ball with little adjustments here and there to counteract the errors introduced by the CTE instructions. So that makes CTE PRO1, specifically Stan's version of CTE, no different from any other system. It takes rote learning to learn the small adjustments needed to pocket the ball. It is a subjective process only the strong supporters here don't realize that.

I could go on and on but history says we'll continue to disagree so I'm not sure it is worth the effort. Let me just say that I don't "look for reasons it won't work" as you say. I look at the claims made by Stan and look for evidence to test those claims one way or the other. I sometimes find evidence of Stan steering the cue to make the shot and also find him making false statements. I'm not passing judgment on Stan about these things, just observing and trying to put all the data together in order to understand why it works when Stan does it. He says it's "a mystery that was never supposed to be." Well that's not a satisfying explanation for curious people.

Here's one example. Stan says that players using CTE don't have to worry about throw because CTE counteracts throw and even shooting hard or soft doesn't matter. OK, that's a pretty strong claim. Is it true? Stan was kind enough to demonstrate what he meant. In so doing he actually proved the opposite. If you follow the logic you'll see that CTE cannot work the way Stan claims. That means it works by some other means. Some say it is magic but I believe the simpler explanation: the brain is given the task of pocketing the ball and EVENTUALLY it will find a way to make that happen, or will give up trying. Of course that begs the question of why bother? It is the same process of rote learning as HAMB (hit a million balls) with the perceptions helping you get the ball in the proximity of the pocket, kind of how Poolology gets the ball close to the pocket (extremely close).

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462546

In looking at that link I see that you already responded and kind of fluffed away the observations. You made an incorrect statement that throw increases with more speed and also said you don't understand CTE and agree that you might be making subconscious adjustments. I'm lost as to what you are trying to say now.

If you were truly looking at this video objectively and dispassionately, no matter how impressed you are with Stan's passion, you have to conclude that Stan is incorrect and speed does alter the path of the ob when using CTE. If I am interpreting what is clearly happening the video incorrectly I would welcome a different interpretation.


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06-16-2019, 05:21 AM

dan
for rhetorical purposes lets say that everything you say is correct.
everyone has read it and can draw their own conclusions if they agree or not
why do you have to say it over and over?
everyone knows where you (and a few other guys ) are on the subject
just askin...
  
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06-16-2019, 05:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
dan
for rhetorical purposes lets say that everything you say is correct.
everyone has read it and can draw their own conclusions if they agree or not
why do you have to say it over and over?
everyone knows where you (and a few other guys ) are on the subject
just askin...
Sent you a pm.


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06-16-2019, 05:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
dan
for rhetorical purposes lets say that everything you say is correct.
everyone has read it and can draw their own conclusions if they agree or not
why do you have to say it over and over?
everyone knows where you (and a few other guys ) are on the subject
just askin...
9-26-17
Do you really want to see the bashing come to an end? If so, this new rule certainly isn't doing very much.

Your last 3 lines above spell out BAN times. My suggestion is to not have BANS from the entire forum.

But certain individuals who habitually can't control themselves with the CTE Aiming System need to be forbidden to enter any conversation regarding the subject.

#1 on the list is LOU FIGUEROA. He was the primary attacker 20 years ago and still holds a vendetta for it and is the primary attacker today as evidenced in his latest posts. It never stops.

#2 is DAN White.

#3 is BC21, Brian.

#4 JoeyInCali

If #5 is coming back to the forum in the short future it would be PAT JOHNSON. They have no control and revel in their creation of mayhem and dirt.

#6 ENGLISH! Nobody on the planet worse. Around the clock 24/7 posting on all the forums but Aiming is the worst.

Prohibit them from entering into any discussion about CTE or CENTER TO EDGE; starting their own posts about it; interacting with any and all known CTE users reg proponents, and creator of CTE; bringing it up in any other threads related to another aiming system.

Do you want peace and quiet? Try it for one or two months as an experiment and I'll bet the aiming forum gets as quiet as an empty church. If you don't, nothing will change. It's in your hands Mike.

Larry, this is what I wrote to Mike almost 2 years ago.

WHAT NAMES DO YOU SEE POSTING IN THESE THREADS THAT ARE STILL SCREAMING, CRYING, AND WHINING ABOUT THE SAME CRAP NOW IN THE SAME FASHION AS THEN? IT'S THE CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF MENTALLY ILL.

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06-16-2019, 06:07 AM

Well since we are quoting monkish stuff........

“The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between “for” and “against” is the mind’s worst disease.”

“To free one’s self from preconceived notions, prejudices, and conditioned responses is essential to understanding truth and reality.”

“Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease, when the mind is obsessed with it.”

“Where some people have a self, most people have a void, because they are too busy in wasting their vital creative energy to project themselves as this or that, dedicating their lives to actualizing a concept of what they should be like rather than actualizing their potentiality as a human being”
  
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06-16-2019, 06:22 AM

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Originally Posted by duckie View Post
Well since we are quoting monkish stuff........

“The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between “for” and “against” is the mind’s worst disease.”

“To free one’s self from preconceived notions, prejudices, and conditioned responses is essential to understanding truth and reality.”

“Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease, when the mind is obsessed with it.”

“Where some people have a self, most people have a void, because they are too busy in wasting their vital creative energy to project themselves as this or that, dedicating their lives to actualizing a concept of what they should be like rather than actualizing their potentiality as a human being”
Ahhh yes, MAHARISHI MAHESH DUCKIE!

Reincarnated from... https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/...hi_mahesh_yogi
  
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06-16-2019, 06:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckie View Post
Well since we are quoting monkish stuff........

“The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between “for” and “against” is the mind’s worst disease.”

“To free one’s self from preconceived notions, prejudices, and conditioned responses is essential to understanding truth and reality.”

“Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease, when the mind is obsessed with it.”

“Where some people have a self, most people have a void, because they are too busy in wasting their vital creative energy to project themselves as this or that, dedicating their lives to actualizing a concept of what they should be like rather than actualizing their potentiality as a human being”
After the basics; the trouble with systems are that blind devotees follow vain repetition and never rise above that to find their own creativity and best potential.The true Champion is not a carbon copy but unique...

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06-16-2019, 06:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckie View Post
Well since we are quoting monkish stuff........

“The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between “for” and “against” is the mind’s worst disease.”

“To free one’s self from preconceived notions, prejudices, and conditioned responses is essential to understanding truth and reality.”

“Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease, when the mind is obsessed with it.”

“Where some people have a self, most people have a void, because they are too busy in wasting their vital creative energy to project themselves as this or that, dedicating their lives to actualizing a concept of what they should be like rather than actualizing their potentiality as a human being”
duckie
i will send you a pm when i am in need of some spiritual uplifting....
thanks for your post
i really mean that
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06-16-2019, 07:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
It is objective but can't be drawn on paper or shown in animation.
Imho, there is some contradiction in there.

Years ago, people claimed they learned it over the phone.
You can draw the concept on paper but you can’t capture the perception that makes it work, if it does work. Which I’m not sure about. Like I’ve said multiple times I don’t know the system that well. What I know of it seems very promising and works well for me when I try it.

I never said you couldn’t show it with animation. I think you could.

The whole objective/subjective thing is something I don’t care about at all. That’s something people have chosen to obsess about and argue endlessly to no point.

I got dragged into this because I was trying to explain some of what I thought might be misperceptions and suddenly people turned on me as if I’m the next prophet of CTE. I’m not. I have an open mind about it and I’m patiently waiting for more information. If it works for me I’ll use it. If it doesn’t I won’t. I have experimented with it with some great results and I think there is something there. That is all.

I’ve been around since RSB days and this is the first time I’ve really jumped in on any CTE topics so that should tell you something about how little I’m invested in this topic. Why I chose to jump in now I have no idea but I definitely regret it. I don’t think it’s possible to have a civil conversation on this topic with the history and personalities here. I wish it were.


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