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05-16-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
Name me ONE fascist ideal that LWW presents here.

Just ONE.

Thank you,

Jeff Livingston

Of course if you had been paying attention for the last few years you wouldn't have to ask such a mundane question.

Marvin has been as thorough as anyone in documenting the evidence of his fascist leanings so why do you think I could ever convince you....?

I don't have near the credentials of Berlo.

Do you have him on ignore....?

But....You do remember the denial of "water-boarding" as a means of torture right....That's one clue to your uncertainty.

BTW....What's with the new found love affair with you two...?

I remember a few years back when you and he were mortal enemies.

It appears the election of Barack Obama has united you to dudes....(It's OK if I use dude...Isn't it....?) I don't want to offend you with my "son" characterization....


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05-16-2012, 12:52 PM

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Originally Posted by bamadog View Post
Perhaps, next, you could show him how to punctuate the end of a sentence.

You really don't need a comma after perhaps....

Here's an example.....If you were completing a thought you would use a period after perhaps.

Perhaps. Next, you could show him how to punctuate.


Emphasis is the key to good writing.

I made all A's in English and English Composition.

But...that doesn't mean I always conform to "all" of its rules.

I like to be creative like Sev.....

Yours is not creative....Notice Sev/style emphasis on yours...

In my creative style I would have said: Perhaps next.....you could show him how to punctuate.

Live and learn son....Live and learn....

Isn't life joyful....


gbru
  
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05-16-2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbru View Post
Of course if you had been paying attention for the last few years you wouldn't have to ask such a mundane question.

Marvin has been as thorough as anyone in documenting the evidence of his fascist leanings so why do you think I could ever convince you....?

I don't have near the credentials of Berlo.

Do you have him on ignore....?

But....You do remember the denial of "water-boarding" as a means of torture right....That's one clue to your uncertainty.

BTW....What's with the new found love affair with you two...?

I remember a few years back when you and he were mortal enemies.

It appears the election of Barack Obama has united you to dudes....(It's OK if I use dude...Isn't it....?) I don't want to offend you with my "son" characterization....
Let the record show that you couldn't answer CJ's simple question.
  
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05-16-2012, 02:05 PM

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Originally Posted by UGOTDA7 View Post
Let the record show that you couldn't answer CJ's simple question.

Let the record show that your little pea brain couldn't grasp the connection between waterboard tortue and various other torture methods that are used and justified by Fascist and fascist sympathizers....

What a loser....!

How much am I paying you a month to "not" do anything but waste time giving dumb examples of your inability to discern simple answers....?

We should have never taken K/P away from you kids....You have too much free time....Go to work.


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05-16-2012, 02:59 PM

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Originally Posted by gbru View Post
Of course if you had been paying attention for the last few years you wouldn't have to ask such a mundane question.
Nobody thought you could.


"I can't stand you (LWW). You're one of the worst people I've ever known...You can rot in hell you pathetic loser."
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05-16-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbru View Post
Let the record show that your little pea brain couldn't grasp the connection between waterboard tortue and various other torture methods that are used and justified by Fascist and fascist sympathizers....

What a loser....!

How much am I paying you a month to "not" do anything but waste time giving dumb examples of your inability to discern simple answers....?

We should have never taken K/P away from you kids....You have too much free time....Go to work.
What does all of this blah, blah, blah have to do with CJ's question?

Let the record show that you not only couldn't answer it but that when given another chance to do so tried to deflect.....and quite poorly at that.

Come on old man.....you can do better can't you?
  
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05-16-2012, 06:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbru View Post
Of course if you had been paying attention for the last few years you wouldn't have to ask such a mundane question.

Marvin has been as thorough as anyone in documenting the evidence of his fascist leanings so why do you think I could ever convince you....?

I don't have near the credentials of Berlo.

Do you have him on ignore....?

But....You do remember the denial of "water-boarding" as a means of torture right....That's one clue to your uncertainty.

BTW....What's with the new found love affair with you two...?

I remember a few years back when you and he were mortal enemies.

It appears the election of Barack Obama has united you to dudes....(It's OK if I use dude...Isn't it....?) I don't want to offend you with my "son" characterization....

So, you have no proof for your linking him with fascism.

Now what?

Jeff Livingston
  
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05-16-2012, 06:48 PM

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Originally Posted by LWW View Post
Nobody thought you could.

Of course you side-stepped the issue of enhanced interrogation....water-boarding included that you so mightily defended when your hero GW Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and the host of other fascists from that regime were in power.

Fascist will never admit their wrongs no matter how many times they are proven to be liars and scoundrels....They will always wiggle and squirm but never own up to their sordid tactics of deception, intimidation and counter-propaganda.



The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation". Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods, as you can see above, are indistinguishable from those described as "enhanced interrogation techniques" by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.

Also: the use of hypothermia, authorized by Bush and Rumsfeld, was initially forbidden. 'Waterboarding" was forbidden too, unlike that authorized by Bush. As time went on, historians have found that all the bureaucratic restrictions were eventually broken or abridged. Once you start torturing, it has a life of its own. The "cold bath" technique - the same as that used by Bush against al-Qahtani in Guantanamo - was, according to professor Darius Rejali of Reed College, pioneered by a member of the French Gestapo by the pseudonym Masuy about 1943. The Belgian resistance referred to it as the Paris method, and the Gestapo authorized its extension from France to at least two places late in the war, Norway and Czechoslovakia. That is where people report experiencing it.

In Norway, we actually have a 1948 court case that weighs whether "enhanced interrogation" using the methods approved by president Bush amounted to torture. The proceedings are fascinating, with specific reference to the hypothermia used in Gitmo, and throughout interrogation centers across the field of conflict. The Nazi defense of the techniques is almost verbatim that of the Bush administration...

Here's a document from Norway's 1948 war-crimes trials detailing the prosecution of Nazis convicted of "enhanced interrogation techniques" in the Second World War. Money quote from the cases of three Germans convicted of war crimes for "enhanced interrogation": http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/bruns.htm


Between 1942 and 1945, Bruns used the method of "verschärfte Vernehmung" on 11 Norwegian citizens. This method involved the use of various implements of torture, cold baths and blows and kicks in the face and all over the body. Most of the prisoners suffered for a considerable time from the injuries received during those interrogations.

Between 1942 and 1945, Schubert gave 14 Norwegian prisoners "verschärfte Vernehmung," using various instruments of torture and hitting them in the face and over the body. Many of the prisoners suffered for a considerable time from the effects of injuries they received.

On 1st February, 1945, Clemens shot a second Norwegian prisoner from a distance of 1.5 metres while he was trying to escape. Between 1943 and 1945, Clemens employed the method of " verschäfte Vernehmung " on 23 Norwegian prisoners. He used various instruments of torture and cold baths. Some of the prisoners continued for a considerable time to suffer from injuries received at his hands.

Freezing prisoners to near-death, repeated beatings, long forced-standing, waterboarding, cold showers in air-conditioned rooms, stress positions [Arrest mit Verschaerfung], withholding of medicine and leaving wounded or sick prisoners alone in cells for days on end - all these have occurred at US detention camps under the command of president George W. Bush. Over a hundred documented deaths have occurred in these interrogation sessions. The Pentagon itself has conceded homocide by torture in multiple cases. Notice the classic, universal and simple criterion used to define torture in 1948 (my italics):


In deciding the degree of punishment, the Court found it decisive that the defendants had inflicted serious physical and mental suffering on their victims, and did not find sufficient reason for a mitigation of the punishment in accordance with the provisions laid down in Art. 5 of the Provisional Decree of 4th May, 1945. The Court came to the conclusion that such acts, even though they were committed with the connivance of superiors in rank or even on their orders, must be regarded and punished as serious war crimes.

The victims, by the way, were not in uniform. And the Nazis tried to argue, just as John Yoo did, that this made torturing them legit. The victims were paramilitary Norwegians, operating as an insurgency, against an occupying force. And the torturers had also interrogated some prisoners humanely. But the argument, deployed by Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the Nazis before them, didn't wash with the court. Money quote:


As extenuating circumstances, Bruns had pleaded various incidents in which he had helped Norwegians, Schubert had pleaded difficulties at home, and Clemens had pointed to several hundred interrogations during which he had treated prisoners humanely.

The Court did not regard any of the above-mentioned circumstances as a sufficient reason for mitigating the punishment and found it necessary to act with the utmost severity. Each of the defendants was responsible for a series of incidents of torture, every one of which could, according to Art. 3 (a), (c) and (d) of the Provisional Decree of 4th May, 1945, be punished by the death sentence.

So using "enhanced interrogation techniques" against insurgent prisoners out of uniform was punishable by death. Here's the Nazi defense argument:


(c) That the acts of torture in no case resulted in death. Most of the injuries inflicted were slight and did not result in permanent disablement.

This is the Yoo position. It's what Glenn Reynolds calls the "sensible" position on torture. It was the camp slogan at Camp Nama in Iraq: "No Blood, No Foul." Now take the issue of "stress positions", photographed at Abu Ghraib and used at Bagram to murder an innocent detainee. Here's a good description of how stress positions operate:


The hands were tied together closely with a cord on the back of the prisoner, raised then the body and hung the cord to a hook, which was attached into two meters height in a tree, so that the feet in air hung. The whole body weight rested thus at the joints bent to the rear. The minimum period of hanging up was a half hour. To remain there three hours hung up, was pretty often. This punishment was carried out at least twice weekly.

This is how one detainee at Abu Ghraib died (combined with beating) as in the photograph above. The experience of enduring these stress positions has been described by Rush Limbaugh as no worse than frat-house hazings. Those who have gone through them disagree. They describe:


Dreadful pain in the shoulders and wrists were the results of this treatment. Only laboriously the lung could be supplied with the necessary oxygen. The heart worked in a racing speed. From all pores the sweat penetrated.

Yes, this is an account of someone who went through the "enhanced interrogation techniques" at Dachau. (Google translation here.)

Critics will no doubt say I am accusing the Bush administration of being Hitler. I'm not. There is no comparison between the political system in Germany in 1937 and the U.S. in 2007. What I am reporting is a simple empirical fact: the interrogation methods approved and defended by this president are not new. Many have been used in the past. The very phrase used by the president to describe torture-that-isn't-somehow-torture - "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis. The techniques are indistinguishable. The methods were clearly understood in 1948 as war-crimes. The punishment for them was death.

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dis...ehmung/228158/



Now....it's your turn to kick and scream at how mean I am being for exposing you and your fellow fascist comrades who were caught with their pants down more than once when pictures of soldiers using torture were exposed to the world at Abu Ghraib, Guantanimo and other secret sites under the guidance of the Fascist Regime led by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield etc.


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05-16-2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
So, you have no proof for your linking him with fascism.

Now what?

Jeff Livingston


So you also openly support the fascist elements of enhanced interrrogation as well....

And the "good ole boys" descend on their prey....
Not to worry....I've been in this situation many times in my life.

But my...isn't it quaint how times change....!

Freind and foe united.


gbru

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05-16-2012, 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbru View Post
So you also openly support the fascist elements of enhanced interrrogation as well....

And the "good ole boys" descend on their prey....
Not to worry....I've been in this situation many times in my life.

But my...isn't it quint how times change....!

Freind and foe united.
So it is simply supporting "enhanced interrogation" that makes one fascist? Is that what you're saying? And you're saying CJ does that?

And "good ole boys"? Who exactly is that?

You just don't pay attention much around here do you?
  
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05-16-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbru View Post
You really don't need a comma after perhaps....

Here's an example.....If you were completing a thought you would use a period after perhaps.

Perhaps. Next, you could show him how to punctuate.


Emphasis is the key to good writing.

I made all A's in English and English Composition.

But...that doesn't mean I always conform to "all" of its rules.

I like to be creative like Sev.....

Yours is not creative....Notice Sev/style emphasis on yours...

In my creative style I would have said: Perhaps next.....you could show him how to punctuate.

Live and learn son....Live and learn....

Isn't life joyful....
Didn't I already school you on the use of "engulf"?
Now, you're back for more.
  
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LWW
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05-17-2012, 02:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbru View Post
So you also openly support the fascist elements of enhanced interrrogation as well....
First off, EIT is not the definition of fascism.

Fascism is an economic system.

Bush and Cheney are in fact fascists. So is Obama. So are you.

You demand that the state tell you, and everyone else, what to do.

I am a Mini statist in that I support having a state just large enough to prevent chaos.

CJ is more or less an anarchist.

I realize that I have used several words that confuse you, but trust on something ... WORDS MEAN THINGS.

You cannot make a useful contribution to these conversations until you wap your head around what the words that you use actually mean.


"I can't stand you (LWW). You're one of the worst people I've ever known...You can rot in hell you pathetic loser."
-Bishop-

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05-17-2012, 04:24 AM

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Originally Posted by gbru View Post
So you also openly support the fascist elements of enhanced interrrogation as well....

(snip).
Waterboarding is a technique used by many different types of governments, not just fascists states.

LWW is not a fascist. Anyone WITH AN HONEST MIND, knows this.

You said he and I were mortal enemies. You are wrong. We respect each others viewpoints, even as we vehemently disagree between anarchy and mini-statism as the solutions. You know why the respect? Because each of us has HONESTLY THOUGHT THROUGH his positions and advance those viewpoints here. That's why we read each others stuff and think about it..and sometimes change a position or two because of the other guy.

Mistakes? Sure, we each make 'em. Delusions? I'd be surprised if there were none. But the basic principles are intact and those guide the process for each of us.

Your principles that guide your viewpoints are what?

Jeff Livingston
  
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05-17-2012, 12:21 PM

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Originally Posted by gbru View Post
Of course you side-stepped the issue of enhanced interrogation....water-boarding included that you so mightily defended when your hero GW Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and the host of other fascists from that regime were in power.

Fascist will never admit their wrongs no matter how many times they are proven to be liars and scoundrels....They will always wiggle and squirm but never own up to their sordid tactics of deception, intimidation and counter-propaganda.



The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation". Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court. The methods, as you can see above, are indistinguishable from those described as "enhanced interrogation techniques" by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.

Also: the use of hypothermia, authorized by Bush and Rumsfeld, was initially forbidden. 'Waterboarding" was forbidden too, unlike that authorized by Bush. As time went on, historians have found that all the bureaucratic restrictions were eventually broken or abridged. Once you start torturing, it has a life of its own. The "cold bath" technique - the same as that used by Bush against al-Qahtani in Guantanamo - was, according to professor Darius Rejali of Reed College, pioneered by a member of the French Gestapo by the pseudonym Masuy about 1943. The Belgian resistance referred to it as the Paris method, and the Gestapo authorized its extension from France to at least two places late in the war, Norway and Czechoslovakia. That is where people report experiencing it.

In Norway, we actually have a 1948 court case that weighs whether "enhanced interrogation" using the methods approved by president Bush amounted to torture. The proceedings are fascinating, with specific reference to the hypothermia used in Gitmo, and throughout interrogation centers across the field of conflict. The Nazi defense of the techniques is almost verbatim that of the Bush administration...

Here's a document from Norway's 1948 war-crimes trials detailing the prosecution of Nazis convicted of "enhanced interrogation techniques" in the Second World War. Money quote from the cases of three Germans convicted of war crimes for "enhanced interrogation": http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/bruns.htm


Between 1942 and 1945, Bruns used the method of "verschärfte Vernehmung" on 11 Norwegian citizens. This method involved the use of various implements of torture, cold baths and blows and kicks in the face and all over the body. Most of the prisoners suffered for a considerable time from the injuries received during those interrogations.

Between 1942 and 1945, Schubert gave 14 Norwegian prisoners "verschärfte Vernehmung," using various instruments of torture and hitting them in the face and over the body. Many of the prisoners suffered for a considerable time from the effects of injuries they received.

On 1st February, 1945, Clemens shot a second Norwegian prisoner from a distance of 1.5 metres while he was trying to escape. Between 1943 and 1945, Clemens employed the method of " verschäfte Vernehmung " on 23 Norwegian prisoners. He used various instruments of torture and cold baths. Some of the prisoners continued for a considerable time to suffer from injuries received at his hands.

Freezing prisoners to near-death, repeated beatings, long forced-standing, waterboarding, cold showers in air-conditioned rooms, stress positions [Arrest mit Verschaerfung], withholding of medicine and leaving wounded or sick prisoners alone in cells for days on end - all these have occurred at US detention camps under the command of president George W. Bush. Over a hundred documented deaths have occurred in these interrogation sessions. The Pentagon itself has conceded homocide by torture in multiple cases. Notice the classic, universal and simple criterion used to define torture in 1948 (my italics):


In deciding the degree of punishment, the Court found it decisive that the defendants had inflicted serious physical and mental suffering on their victims, and did not find sufficient reason for a mitigation of the punishment in accordance with the provisions laid down in Art. 5 of the Provisional Decree of 4th May, 1945. The Court came to the conclusion that such acts, even though they were committed with the connivance of superiors in rank or even on their orders, must be regarded and punished as serious war crimes.

The victims, by the way, were not in uniform. And the Nazis tried to argue, just as John Yoo did, that this made torturing them legit. The victims were paramilitary Norwegians, operating as an insurgency, against an occupying force. And the torturers had also interrogated some prisoners humanely. But the argument, deployed by Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the Nazis before them, didn't wash with the court. Money quote:


As extenuating circumstances, Bruns had pleaded various incidents in which he had helped Norwegians, Schubert had pleaded difficulties at home, and Clemens had pointed to several hundred interrogations during which he had treated prisoners humanely.

The Court did not regard any of the above-mentioned circumstances as a sufficient reason for mitigating the punishment and found it necessary to act with the utmost severity. Each of the defendants was responsible for a series of incidents of torture, every one of which could, according to Art. 3 (a), (c) and (d) of the Provisional Decree of 4th May, 1945, be punished by the death sentence.

So using "enhanced interrogation techniques" against insurgent prisoners out of uniform was punishable by death. Here's the Nazi defense argument:


(c) That the acts of torture in no case resulted in death. Most of the injuries inflicted were slight and did not result in permanent disablement.

This is the Yoo position. It's what Glenn Reynolds calls the "sensible" position on torture. It was the camp slogan at Camp Nama in Iraq: "No Blood, No Foul." Now take the issue of "stress positions", photographed at Abu Ghraib and used at Bagram to murder an innocent detainee. Here's a good description of how stress positions operate:


The hands were tied together closely with a cord on the back of the prisoner, raised then the body and hung the cord to a hook, which was attached into two meters height in a tree, so that the feet in air hung. The whole body weight rested thus at the joints bent to the rear. The minimum period of hanging up was a half hour. To remain there three hours hung up, was pretty often. This punishment was carried out at least twice weekly.

This is how one detainee at Abu Ghraib died (combined with beating) as in the photograph above. The experience of enduring these stress positions has been described by Rush Limbaugh as no worse than frat-house hazings. Those who have gone through them disagree. They describe:


Dreadful pain in the shoulders and wrists were the results of this treatment. Only laboriously the lung could be supplied with the necessary oxygen. The heart worked in a racing speed. From all pores the sweat penetrated.

Yes, this is an account of someone who went through the "enhanced interrogation techniques" at Dachau. (Google translation here.)

Critics will no doubt say I am accusing the Bush administration of being Hitler. I'm not. There is no comparison between the political system in Germany in 1937 and the U.S. in 2007. What I am reporting is a simple empirical fact: the interrogation methods approved and defended by this president are not new. Many have been used in the past. The very phrase used by the president to describe torture-that-isn't-somehow-torture - "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis. The techniques are indistinguishable. The methods were clearly understood in 1948 as war-crimes. The punishment for them was death.

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dis...ehmung/228158/



Now....it's your turn to kick and scream at how mean I am being for exposing you and your fellow fascist comrades who were caught with their pants down more than once when pictures of soldiers using torture were exposed to the world at Abu Ghraib, Guantanimo and other secret sites under the guidance of the Fascist Regime led by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield etc.
So all torture is the result of fascism? What were the guys at the Hanoi Hilton doing?

When communists shove bamboo under the fingernails or attaches battery cables to the genitals it's re education right?


I think I'm starting to get all of these "isms" straight...





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05-17-2012, 01:51 PM

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Originally Posted by chefjeff View Post
Your principles that guide your viewpoints are what?

Jeff Livingston
Absolute fealty to the state is the only one I've seen exhibited.


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