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boogeyman
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07-28-2014, 01:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wags View Post
Ok, what is so difficult here? You have the rock, the hard place, and CSI in between. So what if there wasn't a rule in place. So some of the finest heads in pool made a tough call. They have now put in place a ruling that will be the guideline for the future. The US Supreme Court does that all the time.

For those that suggested putting in players from other groups...Did you not get the concept of this invitation only tournament?

It's this kind of junk and attacks and stupidity that keeps me at my 50 posts per year limit.
Mark presented a product (a service) with the money he garnered.
If we chose to patronize that service, there is only one caveat emptor:

so long as the basic service you paid for is rendered,
none of us should complain as to HOW that service was rendered.

That is up to the owner (Mark). It's his product, It's his business.
If we can't run our own businesses in this country,
then what good is it to invest our resources to get that business??!!

I now see the fallacy of anyone pointing fingers at Mark.
Let him run his business the way he chooses!!!!!!!
THIS IS AMERICA!!

End of story!
  
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07-28-2014, 01:53 PM

Has anyone bothered to go over to Pool, who is sitting in the corner crying, and give it a big hug?
  
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07-28-2014, 02:05 PM

Reminds me of being married...whatever I did, for the best reasons and intentions, I was usually still wrong.

And still married.

Prison did not seem to be the answer.

Here, you can vote with your patronage and dollars in the future if you feel wronged.

In the other, with a divorce lawyer.

It's surely a face palm situation..JCIN might say..what could possibly go wrong?

In real time, a decision had to be made..you can't do nothing. Hindsight will be available to pick reasoning apart...always has.
  
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07-28-2014, 02:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inaction View Post
Has anyone bothered to go over to Pool, who is sitting in the corner crying, and give it a big hug?

lol

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  (#20)
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07-28-2014, 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3RAILKICK View Post
Reminds me of being married...whatever I did, for the best reasons and intentions, I was usually still wrong.

And still married.

Prison did not seem to be the answer.

Here, you can vote with your patronage and dollars in the future if you feel wronged.

In the other, with a divorce lawyer.

It's surely a face palm situation..JCIN might say..what could possibly go wrong?

In real time, a decision had to be made..you can't do nothing. Hindsight will be available to pick reasoning apart...always has.

The only thing with marriage is that after a while you just automatically plead guilty and hope for a reduced sentence.

Lou Figueroa
  
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  (#21)
Danktrees
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07-28-2014, 02:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJTyler View Post
Did the badminton players have to pay? perhaps not directly, but I guarantee you that the monies invested by the players & national federations in getting a team qualified into the Olympic games combined with the travel expenses and potential rewards of medaling DWARF those of playing in the CSI 8-ball invitational.
that doesnt change the fact that he played in a tournament. we're talking about whether or not this is simply just an invitational and i'm saying that it's not because there was an entry fee. what those badminton players did to qualify is irrelevant as are the amounts of money they may or may not have put in to get to their level of proficiency. i'm specifically asking if they had to pay for play in the invitational. ko did so it wasn't simply just an invitational. he had to actually pay money to play in it. travel expense etc. are not the point as getting an invitation and showing up do not get you in the tournament. you have to pay to play.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BJTyler View Post
Please re-read my comment, you are making a critical leap in logic by assuming that any forfeit => a bye, as I stated, this has NOT been the case in between stages of a multi-stage tournament.
and you should re-read my comments. i am stating that because they had to pay to play, then a forfeit should be a bye. you are comparing a multi stage tournament with no entry fee to one that has entry fees where the participant has to pay to play. furthermore those tournaments have specific rules and guidelines that stipulates what happens in these situations whereas this one clearly did not so it's unfair for ko to be forced to play. now if that's what the director considered is the best decision then it is what it is. but this was clearly something that should have been part of the tournament rules. guys showing up late, not showing up etc. is not unheard of. if anything instead of forcing ko to play they should have forced souquet to play and held his money if he refused.

to your point, if souquet forfeited then that means the match is over i.e. ko wins 12-0 or whatever the race is. it's registered as an official win which means ko goes to the finals. if souquet didn't forfeit then he didnt officially finish the tournament so he shouldnt have gotten paid since he had no finishing position. you can't have a forfeit and give him money for finishing but then say his match never occurred and send shane in there to take his place. you dont run into this problem in normal tournaments cuz there's no entry fee or prize money, but in this case it's pretty clear to me that you can't do it both ways. either souquet takes the loss and gets money or he didn't play/finish and doesnt get the money in which case shane can take his spot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BJTyler View Post
The rest of your post is speculative without evidence, but I generally agree that there should not be double standards
that's why i qualified it by saying if that story is true. although considering some people that were there have said that he was forced to play it seems that something did happen that prevented ko from being able to refuse to play.


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What if it was Shane denied the bye???
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Kid Dynomite
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What if it was Shane denied the bye??? - 07-28-2014, 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogeyman View Post
Mark presented a product (a service) with the money he garnered.
If we chose to patronize that service, there is only one caveat emptor:

so long as the basic service you paid for is rendered,
none of us should complain as to HOW that service was rendered.

That is up to the owner (Mark). It's his product, It's his business.
If we can't run our own businesses in this country,
then what good is it to invest our resources to get that business??!!

I now see the fallacy of anyone pointing fingers at Mark.
Let him run his business the way he chooses!!!!!!!
THIS IS AMERICA!!

End of story!
This issue is about JUSTICE!

Would the same action have been taken if it was SHANE getting the forfeit and KO was runner up of Ralph's bracket???

How do we as society determine if something is ETHICAL???

These questions should not EXIST!!! This board and PUBLIC outrage is paramount in facilitating JUSTICE. It being hashed out in the public and brought under public scrutiny allows the COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION to guide us democratically.

If this happened in ASIA and shane was treated in this manner the OUTRAGE would be unprecedented. With that said, I can only lobby on behalf of what I think is right and how I would feel if the situation was reversed and the event was in ASIA and a USA player was treated in this manner. I would be outraged and have to be consistent and be just as outraged when a USA event mistreats a foreign player.

Yes this is America! But, come on people! Be uniform in your position on issues. Ok as long as it ain't happening to an AMERICAN!!!

KD


Like a Samurai you are only as good as your weapon!
A.K.A. = Dennis (Michael) Wilson Jr.
  
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  (#23)
BJTyler
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07-28-2014, 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danktrees View Post
that doesnt change the fact that he played in a tournament. we're talking about whether or not this is simply just an invitational and i'm saying that it's not because there was an entry fee. what those badminton players did to qualify is irrelevant as are the amounts of money they may or may not have put in to get to their level of proficiency. i'm specifically asking if they had to pay for play in the invitational. ko did so it wasn't simply just an invitational. he had to actually pay money to play in it. travel expense etc. are not the point as getting an invitation and showing up do not get you in the tournament. you have to pay to play.

and you should re-read my comments. i am stating that because they had to pay to play, then a forfeit should be a bye. you are comparing a multi stage tournament with no entry fee to one that has entry fees where the participant has to pay to play. furthermore those tournaments have specific rules and guidelines that stipulates what happens in these situations whereas this one clearly did not so it's unfair for ko to be forced to play. now if that's what the director considered is the best decision then it is what it is. but this was clearly something that should have been part of the tournament rules. guys showing up late, not showing up etc. is not unheard of. if anything instead of forcing ko to play they should have forced souquet to play and held his money if he refused.

to your point, if souquet forfeited then that means the match is over i.e. ko wins 12-0 or whatever the race is. it's registered as an official win which means ko goes to the finals. if souquet didn't forfeit then he didnt officially finish the tournament so he shouldnt have gotten paid since he had no finishing position. you can't have a forfeit and give him money for finishing but then say his match never occurred and send shane in there to take his place. you dont run into this problem in normal tournaments cuz there's no entry fee or prize money, but in this case it's pretty clear to me that you can't do it both ways. either souquet takes the loss and gets money or he didn't play/finish and doesnt get the money in which case shane can take his spot.

that's why i qualified it by saying if that story is true. although considering some people that were there have said that he was forced to play it seems that something did happen that prevented ko from being able to refuse to play.
You seem to be making a distinction between whether this was a tournament or an invitational. And you seem to be defining this distinction by whether there was an entry fee or not.

I agree with neither premise.

The two terms - tournament and invitational - are NOT mutually exclusive. And the payment of an entry fee defines neither.

There are some tournaments that are invitationals: Masters Golf Tournament, CSI 8 ball
Some that are open to all: World Series of Poker, US Open 9ball
Some that are open to few (invitees + qualifiers): WPA 9ball, US open Golf

Furthermore some have no entry fee (The Masters, the Olympics) while others have an entry fee (US Open, World 14.1), while others have entry fees for some and not others.

But regardless of whether a tournament is an invitational, open,or mixed with or without an entry fee, they all have a responsibility to conduct themselves fairly. This primarily means following the rules that have been explicitly stated. However, the reality is that there are always potential contingencies for which no explicit rule exists. In these events, TDs generally rely upon what has been done before.

Thus, the point of my badminton analogy!!! That was a major international tournament that was conducted in a format similar to the CSI 8ball and had a similar contingency that was adjudicated similarly.

You seem to think there is some absolute standard for how a tournament should be run. e.g. any forfeit must result in a bye. WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN? PLEASE show me the CSI 8ball invitational handbook that explicitly states that in the event of a forfeit by a group qualifier a bye will result during the semifinals of the knockout stage.

Or PLEASE show me where this has happened before. (a group qualifier forfeiting prior to the knockout stage beginning and a bye was issued)

The production of either will greatly enhance your position.

Finally, regarding the payment of prize money. If Mark Griffin wants to dig into his own pockets and pay Souquet more than he's entitled to, that's his choice. And as long as everyone else got paid what they were entitled to it shouldn't matter one iota. Personally, if I was in Mark Griffin's shoes, Souquet would not have received one red nickel. Or at best he would have received the minimum.

Last edited by BJTyler; 07-28-2014 at 03:32 PM.
  
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  (#24)
BJTyler
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07-28-2014, 03:24 PM

Please see my replies below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Dynomite View Post
This issue is about JUSTICE!
- I agree, and unlike many others I think this issue is important and worthy of debate.

Would the same action have been taken if it was SHANE getting the forfeit and KO was runner up of Ralph's bracket???
- I would certainly hope so, otherwise it is clearly wrong.

How do we as society determine if something is ETHICAL???

These questions should not EXIST!!! This board and PUBLIC outrage is paramount in facilitating JUSTICE. It being hashed out in the public and brought under public scrutiny allows the COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION to guide us democratically.
- interestingly enough, according to an AZB poll, a slight majority seems to believe justice was in fact done.


If this happened in ASIA and shane was treated in this manner the OUTRAGE would be unprecedented.
-I don't know how you know this. I can only speak for myself and I would feel absolutely the same.


With that said, I can only lobby on behalf of what I think is right and how I would feel if the situation was reversed and the event was in ASIA and a USA player was treated in this manner. I would be outraged and have to be consistent and be just as outraged when a USA event mistreats a foreign player.
- You believe you would act consistently and I am in no position to question you, I also feel I would act consistently. So why do you feel inclined to question the integrity/consistency of those with opposing views?

Yes this is America! But, come on people! Be uniform in your position on issues. Ok as long as it ain't happening to an AMERICAN!!!
- again I don't know how you arrive at the conclusion that we would not be uniform

KD

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07-28-2014, 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogeyman View Post
Mark presented a product (a service) with the money he garnered.
If we chose to patronize that service, there is only one caveat emptor:

so long as the basic service you paid for is rendered,
none of us should complain as to HOW that service was rendered.

That is up to the owner (Mark). It's his product, It's his business.
If we can't run our own businesses in this country,
then what good is it to invest our resources to get that business??!!

I now see the fallacy of anyone pointing fingers at Mark.
Let him run his business the way he chooses!!!!!!!
THIS IS AMERICA!!

End of story!
Yep this is America and AZB where unlike CSI we can speak up and not worry about getting banned ,,


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Kid Dynomite
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07-28-2014, 03:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJTyler View Post
Please see my replies below.
"- again I don't know how you arrive at the conclusion that we would not be uniform"

Very easy to answer!

The abundance of varying opinions leads me to believe that there is a lack of UNIFORMITY in this society/forum on the issue of justice and what constitutes it! The POLL reflects that most vividly.

The Shane Fan club has been in full force on this forum for a very long time and ASSUMING a massive amount of OUTRAGE if the situation was reversed and an ASIA tournament did the same thing to Shane in the same manner is pretty logical and FAIR to deduce!!!

I hope that fairly explains how I would "Know" or deduce this opinion.

KD


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07-28-2014, 03:41 PM

So, out of the 3 people that are upset about this, how many would've gotten in Ralph's face for forfeiting out of a tournament he planned poorly for, screwing over 3 other people that paid an entry and also travelled? Yep, none.

This is why I've yet to give any effort to starting a tournament, because I couldn't deal with all of the damn crybabies. No matter what you do, you're going to have a tissue shortage by the end of the night. I don't pay people, or provide them with opportunities, to give me a headache.
  
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  (#28)
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07-28-2014, 03:47 PM

Your original statement

Yes this is America! But, come on people! Be uniform in your position on issues. Ok as long as it ain't happening to an AMERICAN!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Dynomite View Post
"- again I don't know how you arrive at the conclusion that we would not be uniform"

Very easy to answer!

The abundance of varying opinions leads me to believe that there is a lack of UNIFORMITY in this society/forum on the issue of justice and what constitutes it! The POLL reflects that most vividly.
- sorry, of course all Americans would not be uniform in our opinions, i.e. share the same opinion. But I believe that most people's opinions would be uniform across the two scenarios you presented. Based upon your original statement -above- I believe it was fair to assume you were referring to the latter type of uniformity.

The Shane Fan club has been in full force on this forum for a very long time and ASSUMING a massive amount of OUTRAGE if the situation was reversed and an ASIA tournament did the same thing to Shane in the same manner is pretty logical and FAIR to deduce!!!
- Insofar as any Assumption can be logically deduced?????, I guess I can agree. Or at least you can assume I agree.

I hope that fairly explains how I would "Know" or deduce this opinion.
- no it did not. It did however explain why you might make the assumptions you did.
KD

However, I find your stance of positing your integrity while questioning that of others to be extremely arrogant and distasteful.

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07-28-2014, 04:02 PM

Ralf likes spicy chicken. Had to go getsome.
  
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07-28-2014, 04:03 PM

WHERE DO YOU KEEP QUOTING THEY PAID AN ENTRY?


They did not pay an entry fee.

And it was a standard to fill the bracket when going from the Round Robin Round to the Knock-out Round.

IF the change was made after the Knock Out round had played OR started a match that would be one thing BUT this was before the Knock Out round started so STANDARD PROTOCOL!

Ralf had been trying to get the ticket changed but it was too expensive, not just a few dollars but in the Thousands.

NOW Get on with Pool - I'm sure Mark will address when they get some rest and the office put back together. Mark has NEVER ducked - He is Straight UP and Head ON!

Last edited by wrickyb; 07-28-2014 at 04:09 PM.
  
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