What is the Difference between solid wood joint and metal joint

Jeff......you got the magic number.
I’ve posted it before on the Forum.
18% is the absolute min & 19% is better.
However, 20-23% is the sweet spot range.

I had my customs built requesting
a butt weight of 14.5-14.7 ounces.
I have 6 very similar pool cues and
learned shafts are really important,
especially the size and taper length.

Both Bob and Jerry were amazingly
accommodating & produced exactly
what I wanted. The four cues they
made have mirror specs & my EP
and TS cues also happen to be a match.

Based upon my experience with pool cues,
and also conversations with cue-makers, the
shaft is so darn important to the way most cues
play and feel, even more so than its joint. The
exception might be LD & CF shafts of which I
have limited experience testing only but a few.

Matt B.

Bavafongoul said:

Jeff......you got the magic number.
I’ve posted it before on the Forum.
18% is the absolute min & 19% is better.
However, 20-23% is the sweet spot range.

I had my customs built requesting
a butt weight of 14.5-14.7 ounces.
I have 6 very similar pool cues and
learned shafts are really important,
especially the size and taper length.

Both Bob and Jerry were amazingly
accommodating & produced exactly
what I wanted. The four cues they
made have mirror specs & my EP
and TS cues also happen to be a match.

Based upon my experience with pool cues,
and also conversations with cue-makers, the
shaft is so darn important to the way most cues
play and feel, even more so than its joint. The
exception might be LD & CF shafts of which I
have limited experience testing only but a few.

Matt B.

Click to expand...

It sounds like we have very similar preferences in cue specs when it comes to playability, especially when using maple shafts.

Having said that, I now use a CF shaft. It was a nightmare to satisfy my preferences and stay with the CF.

It took me 7 or 8 months of regular playing to adjust to the hit of a CF shaft. The purity of the hit was gone but, after adjusting, the playability was there again.

In order to make it happen, I had to take .75 oz of wood from the butt. We had to drill all the way to the A-joint and then add .90 oz to the nose to make up for the lighter CF shaft in order to keep the total cue's balance point in the same area.

There is NO WAY I could have adjusted (feel wise) to CF if the butt had not been modified to accommodate the lighter and differently balanced shaft.


Jeff

jrctherake said:

It sounds like we have very similar preferences in cue specs when it comes to playability, especially when using maple shafts.

Having said that, I now use a CF shaft. It was a nightmare to satisfy my preferences and stay with the CF.

It took me 7 or 8 months of regular playing to adjust to the hit of a CF shaft. The purity of the hit was gone but, after adjusting, the playability was there again.

In order to make it happen, I had to take .75 oz of wood from the butt. We had to drill all the way to the A-joint and then add .90 oz to the nose to make up for the lighter CF shaft in order to keep the total cue's balance point in the same area.

There is NO WAY I could have adjusted (feel wise) to CF if the butt had not been modified to accommodate the lighter and differently balanced shaft.


Jeff

Click to expand...

What CF shaft do you have? I found that my 12.4 revo weighed a little more than my Z2 with pro-taper. My revo weighs 4oz and I’ve heard of them weighing less. I’m wondering how consistent the weight of CF shafts are. Another thing people like to argue about it is the joint pin. I swear I cant tell a difference between quick release, radial, or anything else.

Gatto138 said:

What CF shaft do you have? I found that my 12.4 revo weighed a little more than my Z2 with pro-taper. My revo weighs 4oz and I’ve heard of them weighing less. I’m wondering how consistent the weight of CF shafts are. Another thing people like to argue about it is the joint pin. I swear I cant tell a difference between quick release, radial, or anything else.

Click to expand...

I use the 12.4 revo and it weighs 3.66 oz. It's a radial pin.

I've held revos that was as heavy as 4.25 oz. My shaft is the lightest revo I've heard of.

As always, the shafts that have inserts are a little heavier but (usually), the pin that they use are usually a bit lighter. So, it usually workes out to a wash.....or close.

BTW, I weighed a muecci CF pro that was 3.0 oz....crazy.

As far as different pins hitting different, you bet your butt they do. It can be a huge distinction or, so little of a difference that almost nobody could notice.

Jeff

This topic has been covered a LOT. Take ten cues and cover the joint area with brown paper. Hit balls and then tell me what joint is in the cue. Good luck Sparky 'cause its already been proven you can't. This test was done yrs ago on the TexasExpressTour in '91. 16 cues were tested. IIRC something like SEVENTY percent of testers could not identify the cue. Guys that thought they were hitting a Meucci were actually hitting a piloted steel and vice versa. The tip, ferrule, shaft have WAAAY more effect on what you feel than the joint. The weight of a particular joint might have a little effect on balance but very little if any on the hit itself.

garczar said:

This topic has been covered a LOT. Take ten cues and cover the joint area with brown paper. Hit balls and then tell me what joint is in the cue. Good luck Sparky 'cause its already been proven you can't. This test was done yrs ago on the TexasExpressTour in '91. 16 cues were tested. IIRC something like SEVENTY percent of testers could not identify the cue. Guys that thought they were hitting a Meucci were actually hitting a piloted steel and vice versa. The tip, ferrule, shaft have WAAAY more effect on what you feel than the joint. The weight of a particular joint might have a little effect on balance but very little if any on the hit itself.

Click to expand...

This is 2020.

Sparky died two months after Spot died in 1991.

One died of old age, the other was beat to death while getting the last three and the breaks.

I do wonder how much has changed since 1991 in cue making methods, and if that same test was done today if the results would be similar...

What do you guys think??

jrctherake said:

This is 2020.

Sparky died two months after Spot died in 1991.

One died of old age, the other was beat to death while getting the last three and the breaks.

Click to expand...

Doesn't matter what year it is. The fact is almost no one can tell what joint is in a cue based on how it feels/sounds. I love it when guys say stuff like " you gotta love that big pin hit". Yeah, whatever. I've had phenolic wood-2-wood that is "supposed" to hit softer hit super hard and stiff. The shaft/ferrule/tip have way more effect than the joint.

garczar said:

Doesn't matter what year it is. The fact is almost no one can tell what joint is in a cue based on how it feels/sounds. I love it when guys say stuff like " you gotta love that big pin hit". Yeah, whatever. I've had phenolic wood-2-wood that is "supposed" to hit softer hit super hard and stiff. The shaft/ferrule/tip have way more effect than the joint.

Click to expand...

Notice you used the words ......."ALMOST" no one can tell.....

Alright Sparky, correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't that mean that "someone" may be able to tell something?

I mean, after all....those are your words.

Was it a typo?

jrctherake said:

Notice you used the words ......."ALMOST" no one can tell.....

Alright Sparky, correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't that mean that "someone" may be able to tell something?

I mean, after all....those are your words.

Was it a typo?

Click to expand...

Alright, I gotta get to bed and get some rest. Hold that thought because I gotta have someone to argue with tonight in case your still up.

Have a good day Gar,

Jeff

Snooker Theory said:

I do wonder how much has changed since 1991 in cue making methods, and if that same test was done today if the results would be similar...

What do you guys think??

Click to expand...

I think "some" can tell small differences in certain cues.

Then again, like Waylon said "I've always been crazy"....

Jeff

garczar said:

Doesn't matter what year it is. The fact is almost no one can tell what joint is in a cue based on how it feels/sounds. I love it when guys say stuff like " you gotta love that big pin hit". Yeah, whatever. I've had phenolic wood-2-wood that is "supposed" to hit softer hit super hard and stiff. The shaft/ferrule/tip have way more effect than the joint.

Click to expand...

I agree completely. The only thing that made a noticeable difference in the hit/feel of a cue is hardness of a tip. I went from a kamui SS to a navigator medium and everything changed. Cue ball response, sound, feel, all different. I then switched to a techno dud and it made more of a difference than I ever could’ve imagined. I can feel when the tip makes contact with the ball. there’s no dead vibration in my hand. I just can’t imagine a joint type or pin configuration having any impact on playability. I could be wrong though, just my two cents

Another Consideration Is Are There Any Weight Bolts In Your Cues?

Well, one thing is certain. A cue with a piloted steel cue joint has a chunk of metal that connects the wood.
A flat faced wood shaft eliminates that and big pin threads work the best, at least that’s my basic take on it.

The piloted joint adds more weight in the middle of the cue than a wood to wood or flat ivory joint. It means
the cue-maker has to build the cue with that in mind, re:cue’s balance, that is also affected by the addition
and placement of any weight bolts the cue-maker used to deliver the target cue weight.

What type of weight bolt, if any, are in your cues now. How big is it and how much does it contribute to the
cue’s overall weight? Is it a single bolt or multiple headless bolts that can be positioned in specific regions
of the cored cue butt so it doesn’t just sit at the base of the cue butt? A few of my cues do not use a weight
bolt at all. A lot of folks own cues that might weight 19 or 20 ounces and they never checked how much the
weight bolt adds to the cue. I submit having a 3/4 or 1 ounce or heavier dramatically affects the balance of
that cue versus that very same cue with a 1/4 ounce bolt or no weight bolt whatsoever.

I don’t want to belabor this point since everyone has their own opinion about pool cues. My comments are
more intended for any readers that might have never considered or learned about the anatomy of a pool
cue. If anyone is having a custom made right now, or is considering ordering a cue, I suggest you have it
made sans any weight bolt or else the lightest version your cue-maker uses and position it within the butt
itself instead at the ass end. It will affect the way your cue feels and I think it is a favorable change too.

My last two cues Bob & Jerry made only have a 3/8 thread (brass & titanium) and A- bolt. The butts are cored
so I could position 1/4 oz, or heavier headless bolts within the butt just in case I ever wanted to add weight.
Personally, If I was going to add weight, say 1/2 oz., I’d prefer it be accomplished using two 1/4 oz. bolts,
vs. a single 1/2 oz. bolt, so the the two bolts can be placed with the butt at different positions versus just a
single heavier bolt. Anyway, I found that my cues made without any weight bolt are my favorite cues or at
least they tend to be the cues removed from my case first whenever I play but I do play with all of my cues.

In my opinion, after playing with a wood-wood joint for over a decade,

The biggest difference is that the nose (tip end) on a W-W joint is lighter than the nose of a M-M joint. That is the balance point moves towards the grip W-W compared to M-M.

I like a cue that is light on the nose (tip) with just enough weight that gravity holds the nose down in the bridge fingers allowing a lighter grip at the stroke hand.

MitchAlsup said:

In my opinion, after playing with a wood-wood joint for over a decade,

The biggest difference is that the nose (tip end) on a W-W joint is lighter than the nose of a M-M joint. That is the balance point moves towards the grip W-W compared to M-M.

I like a cue that is light on the nose (tip) with just enough weight that gravity holds the nose down in the bridge fingers allowing a lighter grip at the stroke hand.

Click to expand...

Agree. Different material(collars, pins,inserts) will have an effect on balance FAR more than any change in hit feel.

garczar said:

Agree. Different material(collars, pins,inserts) will have an effect on balance FAR more than any change in hit feel.

Click to expand...

So, you think changing the balance point doesn't change the feel of a cue or it's hit on some level?

Hmmm.......sometimes we learn things we thought we already knew.

Jeff

jrctherake said:

So, you think changing the balance point doesn't change the feel of a cue or it's hit on some level?

Hmmm.......sometimes we learn things we thought we already knew.

Jeff

Click to expand...

Changing the BP an inch or so will barely,if any, change the feel of impact. It may feel a little different in your hand but the feel at impact doesn't change. I've had cues where i took wt. bolt out or swapped to a different wt. and the feel at impact was exactly the same. On the same cue i can put on a different shaft(taper, ferrule, tip all different) and it feels like a totally different cue. My two Mezz shafts have exact same collars but the hit is totally different. Wt. difference in the two shafts is tiny. So, make a long story short: yes, it affects feel a little but the "hit" feel at impact isn't. Not in my experience anyway.

garczar said:

Changing the BP an inch or so will barely,if any, change the feel of impact. It may feel a little different in your hand but the feel at impact doesn't change. I've had cues where i took wt. bolt out or swapped to a different wt. and the feel at impact was exactly the same. On the same cue i can pit a different shaft(taper, ferrule, tip all different) and it feels like a totally different cue. My two Mezz shafts have exact same collars but the hit is totally different. Wt. difference in the two shafts is tiny. So, make a long story short: yes, it affects feel a little but the "hit" feel at impact isn't. Not in my experience anyway.

Click to expand...

I once had a cue with G-10 screw.
I replaced it with a brass screw .
It totally changed the feel of the cue. Night and day.
It was bubinga cue ( cross laminated long piece ).

Dennis Searing worked hard on his "half-joint" ss joint.
Try convincing him a full SS joint will make little difference.

garczar said:

Changing the BP an inch or so will barely,if any, change the feel of impact. It may feel a little different in your hand but the feel at impact doesn't change. I've had cues where i took wt. bolt out or swapped to a different wt. and the feel at impact was exactly the same. On the same cue i can put on a different shaft(taper, ferrule, tip all different) and it feels like a totally different cue. My two Mezz shafts have exact same collars but the hit is totally different. Wt. difference in the two shafts is tiny. So, make a long story short: yes, it affects feel a little but the "hit" feel at impact isn't. Not in my experience anyway.

Click to expand...

Well, I guess that proves it....we're all different...thus...we see and feel things a little differently than others.

JoeyInCali said:

I once had a cue with G-10 screw.
I replaced it with a brass screw .
It totally changed the feel of the cue. Night and day.
It was bubinga cue ( cross laminated long piece ).

Dennis Searing worked hard on his "half-joint" ss joint.
Try convincing him a full SS joint will make little difference.

Click to expand...

I'm of the same belief of you, Dennis Searing and many, many other cue makers not to mention, professional pool players.

That doesn't mean everyone is able to detect the small or even large differences.

I guess our skill levels are like our senses, they vary from person to person.

Jeff