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BCAPL nationals
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Mark Griffin
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BCAPL nationals - 05-22-2012, 09:48 PM

History has shown that a lot of money being added to master levels does NOT increase the size of the field. Strange but true!

I agree that the advanced division will continue to grow - but the largest field will e the open division.

However Jerry, I will respectfully disagree that a player will intentionally lose a match at the 49-64 level. That pays $375 - hardly enough to warrant returning every year to 'skim off' the event.

I will also repeat the old adage: missing looks a lot like dumping.

I will also tell you that we confirmed that did happen a couple of years ago - and not with a super strong player. A suspension of several years was the result.

Mark Griffin




Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckart View Post
Well, I believe there is more added money to the higher divisions already and it's structured that way. But with 1200 players entering the lower division it still has the largest payout.

The advanced division is still fairly new and I think it will grow in a few years time. I just wish we could bucket all the players that are way underrated into these divisions and have less controversy!

I personally witnessed 2 different players dump their matches in 49th place so they wouldn't be bumped up to Advanced and could continue to skim off the Open Status. That just makes me sick that anyone would do that!
  
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05-22-2012, 10:02 PM

I was torn in my opening match as well. I played against someone in the open who has the following accomplishments:

BCA Nationals Speed Pool Champion 2008, 2007, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2000[2]

APA Camel Speed Shot Champion 2002,[3] 2001[4]

3rd place, 2006 ESPN international speed pool challenge[5][6]

3rd place, 2009 ESPN international speed pool challenge[7][8]

2009 ACS[9] Speed Pool Champion
[edit]
Artistic pool

BCA Nationals Artistic Pool Champion 2009, 2008, 2001, 1999, 1998[10]

Dr. Cue Artistic Pool Tour 2009, 2008, 2007, 1st place APA Nationals [11]

1998 VNEA (Valley National 8-Ball Association) Artistic Pool International Champion

1999 VNEA Artistic Pool World Champion

When I checked his previous BCAPL tournaments he played in the Men's Masters Singles in 2010, Men's Advanced Singles in 2011, and this year played in the Men's Open Singles.

Now I realize that being a National Speed Pool Champion for MULTIPLE years doesn't really reflect a person's abilities to play in the open BUT I was surprised to say the least.

Please note I did enjoy losing to him because it was still an experience. I'll also keep in mind that I was no where as prepared to play this year as I have been in the past. I still had my opportunities but never finished well.

I actually knew who I was playing BEFORE I left for Vegas because the brackets were posted on CSIPOOL. I asked one of my referee friends to ask about his eligibility to play in the open.

In my history attending the BCAPL I have been finally knocked out by players from Portugal or players from other countries.

I still enjoy the experience. I will probably play in the Seniors Division next year and hopefully be better prepared. I am just happy it is a double elimination tournament and sometimes comes down to the luck of the draw.........

At least I have a story to tell my friends about my experience being beat by a NATIONAL CHAMPION IN THE FIRST ROUND of a National Tournament.......


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05-22-2012, 10:19 PM

Mooseman, anyone who spends enough time on those darn artistic pool shots shouldn't be allowed to play in any other division,
  
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05-22-2012, 10:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by klockdoc View Post
But, that is irrelevant. BCAPL promotes that! If you have players that play well and by doing so, advance your team to the next level of play....you either play in the higher level, or you recruit new players to allow you to play in the lower division.

I guess it was okay when the Chicago teams dominated the Vegas scene?
I just might know who you are talking about. any supposed handicapped tournament large or small will always attract players trying to steal. The truly believe the bca and most tournament directors do there best to make it as fair as possible. Its 1200 players, race to 5, and an alternate break format. Yes there are favorites but no one has to like it. This will continue to happen across the country regardless of how big or small the tournament is. Love it or hate it, wrong or right, its the nature of the beast and will continue to be that way no matter how much effort is put in. If everyone had to play even (no handicapp) people would complain even more. The bca (mark Griffin) does all he can to make it as fair as possible. If anyone thinks they have the answer to correctly place the 2000+ players in each division and have it be fair to all players imo your crazy. I think we should all be greatful for the tournaments the bca sanctions every year. Just my worthless .02 Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2
  
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05-22-2012, 11:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tryin2playagain View Post
I just might know who you are talking about. any supposed handicapped tournament large or small will always attract players trying to steal. The truly believe the bca and most tournament directors do there best to make it as fair as possible. Its 1200 players, race to 5, and an alternate break format. Yes there are favorites but no one has to like it. This will continue to happen across the country regardless of how big or small the tournament is. Love it or hate it, wrong or right, its the nature of the beast and will continue to be that way no matter how much effort is put in. If everyone had to play even (no handicapp) people would complain even more. The bca (mark Griffin) does all he can to make it as fair as possible. If anyone thinks they have the answer to correctly place the 2000+ players in each division and have it be fair to all players imo your crazy. I think we should all be greatful for the tournaments the bca sanctions every year. Just my worthless .02 Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2
I do not any problem with the system. The only problem is, it is hard to find new players to play with and generate a team to go out to Vegas. Anymore, I just go out to play the Singles, not the team.

We used to bring out around 70 players yearly, now that amount is down to around 8 to 10. 6 for a team and 4 for the singles. This year, I think only 3 went.

I understand that it is difficult to monitor everyone that plays the Nationals. Even when people are pointed out, they are still allowed to play.

My daughter came in 2nd in the Open Scotch doubles. She was beat by a woman that was sponsored by a pool entity, played with the pros. She won the Scotch Doubles with her partner, placed second in the Women''s Open and 5-6 on her Masters team. Complaining didn't change the outcome. She wasn't disqualified. Life goes on.

I remember when Justin Bergman played in the Open in 2006. He was a 4 time Junior National winner...won major tournaments around the country...and was a known player. Didn't stop him from being allowed to play the Open Division.

If he hadn't slept through his first match, he probably would have won 1st easily. Instead, he went through the losers bracket and ended up taking second.

The next year, he went through the Masters Division and never lost a match.

There are many more and it doesn't happen that often. But when it does, you just have to suck it up and hopefully try to catch it next time.

All in all, I would rather play someone even and lose, (no handicap), than to play someone that is player handicapped and lose to them because they are sandbagging.

Bar table race to 5 8 ball....anyone can win


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Last edited by klockdoc; 05-23-2012 at 01:20 AM.
  
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05-22-2012, 11:48 PM

The fault in this lies with the BCAPL, not the players from Taiwan who flew across the world to take part in the event, were admitted by the BCAPL who recognized the league charter those players played under as listed on the CSI results website, and who were allowed to CONTNIUE to play right until the end of the event DESPITE the fact that tons of people were talking about these Taiwanese players and how good they were shooting long before the finals. If the players in the event knew more about what was going on then the BCAPL did then there is something wrong with the BCAPL there.

There is no way these players should play the ENTIRE event and then be told after they finish the event that they are not going to get played. Every year in the BCAPL open there are players in the event that are clearly head and tails better then the rest. Last year two players from my own home town who are KNOWN to be awesome players were let into the open division and low and behold both got very deep in the open and the lower finishing player got beat on the A and B side by the other guy who finished higher. And as good as those guys are the top guy finished 4th so that goes to show how good the other guys in that top 8 on any given year are shooting. NOONE is a given to win a alternate break race to 5 on a 7-foot diamond, any of those guys in the top 5 can shoot out a set with 5 ERO's, I have won and lost many matches in that event exactly like that.

If these guys don't get paid it is hard to see how this can not be a little suspect. Taiwanese players who do not speak english and do not live in the country are probably easier to rip off then Bobby Pickle who used to play pro pool and one day played in the open and drilled everyone I guess... but that is seriously weak and IMO tarnishes the entire league hugely if they suddenly decide to not pay the two top players who were left to play the entire event.

If there is a problem with the stats, what the BCAPL was told by the league charter, then maybe the BCAPL needs to take a more active role in policing their league charters and the stats and ranking systems for the players. It seems every year a new country sends a team of unknown monsters who dominate events and get paid. You do not simply say "oops, our bad for letting you in, you are too good, we are not going to pay you now".

If the BCAPL does not pay off these players it is basically a sign to me that the integrity of the league is gone and they are simply blaming players for things that THEY should have had control of from the start. You sanction a BCAPL charter you make sure that charter is doing things right. And the BCAPL has been VERY slack in that regard for as long as I have played it and always let players slip into these events who should never have been in them. That is on the BCAPL, not the players who are being told they can play in the open division.
  
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05-23-2012, 04:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
I was torn in my opening match as well. I played against someone in the open who has the following accomplishments:

BCA Nationals Speed Pool Champion 2008, 2007, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2000[2]

APA Camel Speed Shot Champion 2002,[3] 2001[4]

3rd place, 2006 ESPN international speed pool challenge[5][6]

3rd place, 2009 ESPN international speed pool challenge[7][8]

2009 ACS[9] Speed Pool Champion
[edit]
Artistic pool

BCA Nationals Artistic Pool Champion 2009, 2008, 2001, 1999, 1998[10]

Dr. Cue Artistic Pool Tour 2009, 2008, 2007, 1st place APA Nationals [11]

1998 VNEA (Valley National 8-Ball Association) Artistic Pool International Champion

1999 VNEA Artistic Pool World Champion

When I checked his previous BCAPL tournaments he played in the Men's Masters Singles in 2010, Men's Advanced Singles in 2011, and this year played in the Men's Open Singles.

Now I realize that being a National Speed Pool Champion for MULTIPLE years doesn't really reflect a person's abilities to play in the open BUT I was surprised to say the least.

Please note I did enjoy losing to him because it was still an experience. I'll also keep in mind that I was no where as prepared to play this year as I have been in the past. I still had my opportunities but never finished well.

I actually knew who I was playing BEFORE I left for Vegas because the brackets were posted on CSIPOOL. I asked one of my referee friends to ask about his eligibility to play in the open.

In my history attending the BCAPL I have been finally knocked out by players from Portugal or players from other countries.

I still enjoy the experience. I will probably play in the Seniors Division next year and hopefully be better prepared. I am just happy it is a double elimination tournament and sometimes comes down to the luck of the draw.........

At least I have a story to tell my friends about my experience being beat by a NATIONAL CHAMPION IN THE FIRST ROUND of a National Tournament.......
I just looked up the tourney charts and I'm guessing your name is Paul Moose-
http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatche...ntID=239108199

I live in the same area as Jason Kane, the "national champion" that beat you the first round. With all due respect, you are waaay off base insinuating that Kane plays above the "BCAPL Open" level. In fact, you are flat out wrong.

Kane's level of play, around here, is around A to A+. For reference, the next level up is "open" and that would be anywhere from weak to solid "shortstop". An average "A+" would be and APA 7 in 8 ball, or APA 9 in 9 ball, that typically has a win/loss percentage of 80% to 85%, locally.

I'm not sure of your level of play. Taking a guess by your tourney performance and the finishes of the ppl that beat you, it would seem that someone like Kane plays miles above your level. Thing is, while it seems like he's a "near pro level" player to you, in reality, he isn't.

Hope that helps.


Eric
  
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05-23-2012, 05:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric. View Post
I just looked up the tourney charts and I'm guessing your name is Paul Moose-
http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatche...ntID=239108199

I live in the same area as Jason Kane, the "national champion" that beat you the first round. With all due respect, you are waaay off base insinuating that Kane plays above the "BCAPL Open" level. In fact, you are flat out wrong.

Kane's level of play, around here, is around A to A+. For reference, the next level up is "open" and that would be anywhere from weak to solid "shortstop". An average "A+" would be and APA 7 in 8 ball, or APA 9 in 9 ball, that typically has a win/loss percentage of 80% to 85%, locally.

I'm not sure of your level of play. Taking a guess by your tourney performance and the finishes of the ppl that beat you, it would seem that someone like Kane plays miles above your level. Thing is, while it seems like he's a "near pro level" player to you, in reality, he isn't.

Hope that helps.


Eric
Believe me I am NOT complaining and I had MORE than enough chances. I am NOT knocking Jason either. I see no wrongdoing on his part. He is a great player and a nice guy.

However if the BCAPL has knowledge of someone's level of play or abilities to consider eligibility to play at whatever level, I just find it surprising that when a multiple year NATIONAL champion of any cuesport would be considered eligible to shoot in the Open division based on current BCAPL policy. Make it a true Open and allow ALL players to play regardless of known skill level. To me it is perception and first appearances. Actions speak louder than words.

My match against Jason was brought to the BCAPL authorities attention PRIOR to my match. I accepted their decision and actually looked forward to playing against a champion.

By the same token I too traveled to Vegas with all the associated expenses. As far as my abilities I can run tables with the best of them but I simply don't get enough playing or practise time anymore. My nearest tables are more than 2-hours away because of where I work. Like most players I am disappointed in my own performance since I do understand my abilities. I just enjoy playing the sport as much as I can.

However this thread is based on what the BCAPL does based on a players KNOWN abilities. The BCAPL does a GREAT job and offers a great experience. However sometimes they appear to be hypocritical. Let's not forget "Actions speak louder than words".


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05-23-2012, 05:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric. View Post
I just looked up the tourney charts and I'm guessing your name is Paul Moose-
http://ctsondemand.com/EntrantMatche...ntID=239108199

I live in the same area as Jason Kane, the "national champion" that beat you the first round. With all due respect, you are waaay off base insinuating that Kane plays above the "BCAPL Open" level. In fact, you are flat out wrong.

Kane's level of play, around here, is around A to A+. For reference, the next level up is "open" and that would be anywhere from weak to solid "shortstop". An average "A+" would be and APA 7 in 8 ball, or APA 9 in 9 ball, that typically has a win/loss percentage of 80% to 85%, locally.

I'm not sure of your level of play. Taking a guess by your tourney performance and the finishes of the ppl that beat you, it would seem that someone like Kane plays miles above your level. Thing is, while it seems like he's a "near pro level" player to you, in reality, he isn't.

Hope that helps.


Eric
Well said Eric. Jason is certainly a very good BCA Open division player. But he is not even close to being the the best player and he certainly isn't close to being the worst.


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05-23-2012, 06:39 AM

I tend to agree with Mr. Griffin on the dumping issue. I think it's less common than thought; once you get that close, the money starts moving up pretty quickly. You'd have to be severely mathematically challenged to think it makes sense. I believe the only times it takes place is if you are on the cusp of being moved up and you see that your opponent in two rounds is a known player you feel you can't beat. In this very particular situation I can see how an unscrupulous player would start considering such a classless move.

HOWEVER... what I do believe is happening more and more is players simply not playing in the singles event at all. Why take the risk of being bumped and not being able to play team anymore? I consider the team event to be the flagship of the week and unfortunately because of the rules changes I haven't been able to play with my team for a few years. I now have to play the pro event and aside from a hill-hill thriller with Oscar on the one-loss side, I know I'm just donating.

Players like me have really gotten squeezed with the change in the Open teams (not allowing even a single player over the Advanced status to participate). Even if I were to petition down into the Masters, which may or may not be accepted, I still wouldn't be allowed. The part that's troubling is that I'm not seeing the anticipated change in skill level of the Open divison. The highest finishing team each year out of NYC would usually average around 17th place. This year, I don't believe any of them came in the top 128. And since most of these players aren't even Advanced, it's not like the poor performance this year was because our teams had to be reorganized. It's basically the same teams as usual; only this year, they all ran into really strong teams. So... though admittedly it's a small sample size, it would not appear the new "only one advanced player on an open team" rule did anything to weaken the open teams.

As far as the Open singles and eligibility, it's a difficult call. The only year I was allowed to play the Open, I lost my first match to a guy named Phil Harrison. About 849328493 matches later, I ran into his buddy Chris Melling and came in 17th place. Both these guys are from England and played in the World 9-Ball Championships that same year, with Chris finishing in 9th place believe. It is what it is. There should be severe penalties for a league director allowing guys that strong into the Open, but this is going back to 1999 I believe and things were different then.

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05-23-2012, 07:07 AM

It seems to me like a simple answer would be to split the Open category into two divisions.

One division for new players and players that cashed the previous year and the other for players that participated in, but didn't cash the previous year.

This would offer several advantages, it would make it so the weaker players have a better chance to cash, it would give incentive for weaker players to come back even if they got trounced the previous year, and it would also split the money up so unknown pro-level players have less incentive to come and rob it.
  
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05-23-2012, 07:13 AM

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Originally Posted by JCIN View Post
Its a well known fact Mark Griffin got on his new Boeing Business Jet (with Leopard Skin interior) and jetted off to some tropical locale to roll around in all the millions the BCAPL made last week.

True story.

I know about the jet cause its parked right next to TAR Space Shuttle at McCarran Airport.
That's the best sarcasm I've ever read.

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05-23-2012, 07:23 AM

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Originally Posted by Peeves View Post
Hate to sound jaded here but it's all BS... The BCAPL doesn't give two shits about anything except making money and I guarantee you they took in a nice haul. They are a business and turning a profit is their sole priority. Which is fine but at least try a little harder to take care of your customers.
They could care less about blue collar joe league player.
Were these foreign players wrong? Why? Cause they "outdid" what countless others have done time and time before? Why are they being made an example of? Who determines what is too good and what isn't? Singling them out borders on rascism. The BCAPL better hope these guys don't sue them.
There are countless instances of players being placed in a division below their skill level. It happens every year. Why is this any different? The answer is that it isn't. Someone with connections must have complained. Probably someone who thought they were gonna rob the tournament. It's all a joke. In this day and age of the Internet, how does one get "robbed" completely unawares? The answer is you don't, the BCAPL was too busy making money to care. This is why there are so many different National tournaments nowadays.
Thats why its A BUSINESS, do you know what A BUSINESS IS?


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05-23-2012, 07:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Mark Griffin View Post
History has shown that a lot of money being added to master levels does NOT increase the size of the field. Strange but true!

I agree that the advanced division will continue to grow - but the largest field will e the open division.

However Jerry, I will respectfully disagree that a player will intentionally lose a match at the 49-64 level. That pays $375 - hardly enough to warrant returning every year to 'skim off' the event.

I will also repeat the old adage: missing looks a lot like dumping.

I will also tell you that we confirmed that did happen a couple of years ago - and not with a super strong player. A suspension of several years was the result.

Mark Griffin
Come on Mark - get to finishing unpacking those boxes so you can comment on the Taiwanese situation.


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05-23-2012, 07:46 AM

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Originally Posted by klockdoc View Post
I do not any problem with the system. The only problem is, it is hard to find new players to play with and generate a team to go out to Vegas. Anymore, I just go out to play the Singles, not the team.

We used to bring out around 70 players yearly, now that amount is down to around 8 to 10. 6 for a team and 4 for the singles. This year, I think only 3 went.

I understand that it is difficult to monitor everyone that plays the Nationals. Even when people are pointed out, they are still allowed to play.

My daughter came in 2nd in the Open Scotch doubles. She was beat by a woman that was sponsored by a pool entity, played with the pros. She won the Scotch Doubles with her partner, placed second in the Women''s Open and 5-6 on her Masters team. Complaining didn't change the outcome. She wasn't disqualified. Life goes on.

I remember when Justin Bergman played in the Open in 2006. He was a 4 time Junior National winner...won major tournaments around the country...and was a known player. Didn't stop him from being allowed to play the Open Division.

If he hadn't slept through his first match, he probably would have won 1st easily. Instead, he went through the losers bracket and ended up taking second.

The next year, he went through the Masters Division and never lost a match.

There are many more and it doesn't happen that often. But when it does, you just have to suck it up and hopefully try to catch it next time.

All in all, I would rather play someone even and lose, (no handicap), than to play someone that is player handicapped and lose to them because they are sandbagging.

Bar table race to 5 8 ball....anyone can win
Just an FYI - and to make things clear to everyone - when Justin got second in the Open division, he didn't over sleep his first match. It was down to the final 32 at least. He misread his match time and then yes was asleep during the time he was to play.

And to give more info, it wasn't Justin's first time playing in the Open Singles - he had been out there before. In the meantime, he was racking up Jr National Championships. And there were many complaints that he was playing in the Open Singles.

We had 6 players from St Louis out in Vega$ this year. The format of the system today prohibits anymore from even wanting to go. Players like Justin, Andy Quinn, Lars Vardaman, Chuck Raulston, Joe Woolford -- who played and supported the BCAPL for years can no longer play. Being forced to play against Pro players in the Grand Masters for singles and ABSOLUTELY no team event for them to play in has made the trip one they don't even consider. To me, this is a huge loss to the BCAPL and the entire experience of the events in Vega$.


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