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05-23-2012, 12:45 PM

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Originally Posted by purpdrag View Post
He didn't say that at all. The Advanced Division would still be the Advanced Division and no new players would be in that division unless they were known and judged to be "Advanced".

New players would play in a separate "Open" division, along with those who had played Open before and cashed (and not been moved to Advanced). The other, almost certainly larger portion of the Open division would be all those who had played the Open before and not cashed and also not been moved up to Advanced.
What you don't seem to get is that the two "open" divisions are not equal, the one where players who did not cash is now the lowest division and the second "open" division includes open players who cash and now the unknown new players who might in fact be monsters. For the new player who truly IS a lower level player that sucks because they are now being stuck into a tougher division that for all intents and purposes takes that place from the Advanced as the second teir division and is not named "advanced" simply because of semantics.
  
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05-23-2012, 01:19 PM

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Thanks WATCHEZ for telling it like it is.
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Thanks WATCHEZ for telling it like it is. - 05-23-2012, 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchez View Post
Just an FYI - and to make things clear to everyone - when Justin got second in the Open division, he didn't over sleep his first match. It was down to the final 32 at least. He misread his match time and then yes was asleep during the time he was to play.

And to give more info, it wasn't Justin's first time playing in the Open Singles - he had been out there before. In the meantime, he was racking up Jr National Championships. And there were many complaints that he was playing in the Open Singles.

We had 6 players from St Louis out in Vega$ this year. The format of the system today prohibits anymore from even wanting to go. Players like Justin, Andy Quinn, Lars Vardaman, Chuck Raulston, Joe Woolford -- who played and supported the BCAPL for years can no longer play. Being forced to play against Pro players in the Grand Masters for singles and ABSOLUTELY no team event for them to play in has made the trip one they don't even consider. To me, this is a huge loss to the BCAPL and the entire experience of the events in Vega$.
I don't like it since they added the Grand Masters. Players in our area have been affected to the point that they don't have options other than go play someone that plays for a living. Also no team option so many of the previous Master level players don't even go to Vegas. You said it well Watchez


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05-23-2012, 03:05 PM

I have a long list of pieces of advice for Mark Griffin -- just waiting for him to unbox his papers so I can respond.

I will let him know this ---

1) When you layout the RIO -- put the arena for the Pro Event in the front, not the back. Pool players, like most people, aren't very smart and I bet a large portion of them didn't even know a pro event was going on or how they could go watch it. Set up a few practice tables for the Pro's that are in the event only outside of the arena. Let the fans walk by and see them hit some balls. Let the players promote themselves and ask the fans to come inside and see what it is all about. Or have someone from CSI standing there to promote it. I'd rather have someone ask me none stop if I want to go watch the pros than ask if I want to buy a ticket to some gaffle for a cue that is worth about 30% of what the value they state it is.

2) Put Robin Dodson Bell -- yes she is great but --- in the back or in a side room by herself. The carnival around her booth has got to stop or at least not be an interruption to the main tournament room.

3) If you are going to have 40 tables for practice for the players (gambling?) - put lights over these tables as well.

Ok - I'll comment on the divisions, the Taiwanese, and the referees once Mark has finished unpacking.


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05-23-2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Griffin View Post
However Jerry, I will respectfully disagree that a player will intentionally lose a match at the 49-64 level. That pays $375 - hardly enough to warrant returning every year to 'skim off' the event.
Mark Griffin
Unfortunately it's true Mark. I saw it in 2011 first hand when a player who usually finishes in the top 16 in Scotch Doubles and top 32 in Teams was playing in the OPEN Singles, got to the 49th-64th place, was drilling the guy 4-0 and started shooting the 8 ball directly into the pocket, negotiated some sort of saver and made up some excuse that he had to catch a flight home, even though I saw him there for the team event 2 days later.

This year there was another player that many people were super shocked to see in the OPEN division. He mowed down everyone with ease to the 49th place match and all of a sudden changed his entire game. Different Break spot, hitting every shot at 82 mph, trying impossible shots and laughing to his buddy about it afterwards. He got 2 games I think, only because his opponent sold out racks that were too easy to pass up. I met this guy the first tuesday night as he gambled even with a master and a grand master player from my area before any of the events kicked off.

I think one way of preventing this from happening would be to not publish the cutoff numbers for players to move up before the event.


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05-23-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchez View Post
I have a long list of pieces of advice for Mark Griffin -- just waiting for him to unbox his papers so I can respond.

I will let him know this ---

1) When you layout the RIO -- put the arena for the Pro Event in the front, not the back. Pool players, like most people, aren't very smart and I bet a large portion of them didn't even know a pro event was going on or how they could go watch it. Set up a few practice tables for the Pro's that are in the event only outside of the arena. Let the fans walk by and see them hit some balls. Let the players promote themselves and ask the fans to come inside and see what it is all about. Or have someone from CSI standing there to promote it. I'd rather have someone ask me none stop if I want to go watch the pros than ask if I want to buy a ticket to some gaffle for a cue that is worth about 30% of what the value they state it is.

2) Put Robin Dodson Bell -- yes she is great but --- in the back or in a side room by herself. The carnival around her booth has got to stop or at least not be an interruption to the main tournament room.

3) If you are going to have 40 tables for practice for the players (gambling?) - put lights over these tables as well.

Ok - I'll comment on the divisions, the Taiwanese, and the referees once Mark has finished unpacking.
Great Points! I completely agree! (Steve Lillis can go next to Robin)

I hope the 40 practice/mini tournament tables are available for practice before matches and not completely locked up with mini's.


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05-23-2012, 03:48 PM

Sheesh, when will Mark finish unpacking? I really want to read what Watchez has to say...
  
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05-23-2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtic View Post
What you don't seem to get is that the two "open" divisions are not equal, the one where players who did not cash is now the lowest division and the second "open" division includes open players who cash and now the unknown new players who might in fact be monsters. For the new player who truly IS a lower level player that sucks because they are now being stuck into a tougher division that for all intents and purposes takes that place from the Advanced as the second teir division and is not named "advanced" simply because of semantics.
The new player who is a lower level player has little chance of cashing his first year in either format, so I don't see how that is a detriment to splitting the open. At least with the division split into two, he has a good chance of cashing the next year, which would probably be preferable to most rather than not cashing for two years straight.

The difference between the two open divisions and an advanced and open division would be that you have to play in the open at least once before getting into the lower division. As opposed to anybody being able to play in the lower division as long as they are unknown. It would essentially be an automatic ranking system, not perfect, but preferable to heresay and the opinions of the people running the tournament (not to mention less detective work). If anybody complains about somebody being too good, the tournament director can just point to the previous year's results and say "look he went 2 and out last year".

One more advantage is that with less money concentrated in the lower divisions, it would give stronger open players incentive to willingly play in the higher divisions possibly making it easier for the less skilled players to cash in the upper level open.
  
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05-23-2012, 10:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric. View Post
Again, you bring up the "multiple year NATIONAL champion" title to assign to him. Does the fact that all the titles were for speed shooting and artistic Pool mean anything to you?? In case you aren't aware or are willfully ignoring the fact; speed shooting has very little to do with how well someone plays. FACT. If Kane was a multiple, NATIONAL, jump shot champion, wuold you complain about that too, as a reason why you lost at 8 ball? It really is apples to cantaloupes.

So, basically, you say one thing, but really feel another way about it.

You say things like:

"Believe me I am NOT complaining and I had MORE than enough chances. I am NOT knocking Jason either."

"brought to the BCAPL authorities attention PRIOR to my match. I accepted their decision"

Then you say:

"The BCAPL does a GREAT job and offers a great experience. However sometimes they appear to be hypocritical. Let's not forget "Actions speak louder than words".

Who is the real hypocrite? I say you- you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

The last point I will make is that (in all honesty), I suspect you are one of those pool players that think their abilities are much better than reality:

"As far as my abilities I can run tables with the best of them but I simply don't get enough playing or practise time anymore. My nearest tables are more than 2-hours away because of where I work"

I'm guessing you dont practice much due to your job and 2 hour drive to a poolhall. You also lost to two guys that didn't go very far in the Open tourney, not deep finishers.

Think about that.


Eric
Not sure what the hell your problem is. You don't know me and I sure as hell don't know you.

Seems like you are demeaning Jason's accomplishments and his abilities. Perhaps you should try to emulate his record.

Let's say you have a national 9-ball champion.... does that mean he/she can't play 8-ball? You have a world class snooker player.... does that mean he/she can't play any other cue sport. With enough time and effort I guess a champion class player could excel at other cue sports.

Without knowing me you belittle my playing abilities based on what... the limited BCAPL results. You mentioned that the folks that defeated me didn't go very deep. Apply the same logic a little further. Where or how did their opponents do? Maybe they lost to one of two taiwanese players.

Not sure how I am being hypocritical when I say, I fully believe the BCAPL does a great job at promoting the sport. However I do feel that sometimes they do not follow their own rules or policies to the letter of the law. I still stand by my "Actions speak louder than words" when I see what happens with the Taiwanese players.

You have made a few assumptions about me in the same way I made some assumptions about Jason. I now have some assumptions about you. Who knows maybe someday we will match up at the BCAPL Nationals.

Unfortunately you do have the advantage since you know my full name but I don't know yours.

Before I forget because of your erroneous assumptions about me.... I accept your apology!!!!!!!!!!


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05-24-2012, 02:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Not sure what the hell your problem is. You don't know me and I sure as hell don't know you.

Seems like you are demeaning Jason's accomplishments and his abilities. Perhaps you should try to emulate his record.

Let's say you have a national 9-ball champion.... does that mean he/she can't play 8-ball? You have a world class snooker player.... does that mean he/she can't play any other cue sport. With enough time and effort I guess a champion class player could excel at other cue sports.

Without knowing me you belittle my playing abilities based on what... the limited BCAPL results. You mentioned that the folks that defeated me didn't go very deep. Apply the same logic a little further. Where or how did their opponents do? Maybe they lost to one of two taiwanese players.

Not sure how I am being hypocritical when I say, I fully believe the BCAPL does a great job at promoting the sport. However I do feel that sometimes they do not follow their own rules or policies to the letter of the law. I still stand by my "Actions speak louder than words" when I see what happens with the Taiwanese players.

You have made a few assumptions about me in the same way I made some assumptions about Jason. I now have some assumptions about you. Who knows maybe someday we will match up at the BCAPL Nationals.

Unfortunately you do have the advantage since you know my full name but I don't know yours.

Before I forget because of your erroneous assumptions about me.... I accept your apology!!!!!!!!!!
He was getting on your case because your posts were two faced, which I have to agree with.

You said

Quote:
Now I realize that being a National Speed Pool Champion for MULTIPLE years doesn't really reflect a person's abilities to play in the open BUT I was surprised to say the least.
Yet you implied that you tried to get your ref friend to disqualified him based on those results. You didn't directly say that you were trying to get him DQ'ed, but the only reason to bring that to the attention to BCAPL officials would be because you want to win by forfeit even though you know that speed pool has nothing to do with actual pool.

Then you go on to call the BCAPL somewhat hypocritical because they allow a national champion into the event. This might be the case were it not for your self-admitted fact that speed pool has jack shit to do with normal pool. You might as well try disqualifying golfers, bowlers, and poker players while you are at it because they have more skills that translate to pool playing skill than speed pool and trick shots.

The points you bring up about 9 ball players and snooker players not being eligible for the 8 ball event isn't relevant to your argument because snooker and 9 ball skills actually do translate to 8 ball skill.

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05-24-2012, 07:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Not sure what the hell your problem is. You don't know me and I sure as hell don't know you.

Seems like you are demeaning Jason's accomplishments and his abilities. Perhaps you should try to emulate his record.

Let's say you have a national 9-ball champion.... does that mean he/she can't play 8-ball? You have a world class snooker player.... does that mean he/she can't play any other cue sport. With enough time and effort I guess a champion class player could excel at other cue sports.

Without knowing me you belittle my playing abilities based on what... the limited BCAPL results. You mentioned that the folks that defeated me didn't go very deep. Apply the same logic a little further. Where or how did their opponents do? Maybe they lost to one of two taiwanese players.

Not sure how I am being hypocritical when I say, I fully believe the BCAPL does a great job at promoting the sport. However I do feel that sometimes they do not follow their own rules or policies to the letter of the law. I still stand by my "Actions speak louder than words" when I see what happens with the Taiwanese players.

You have made a few assumptions about me in the same way I made some assumptions about Jason. I now have some assumptions about you. Who knows maybe someday we will match up at the BCAPL Nationals.

Unfortunately you do have the advantage since you know my full name but I don't know yours.

Before I forget because of your erroneous assumptions about me.... I accept your apology!!!!!!!!!!
national champion at 9ball? uh yeah that player plays good 8ball for sure

national champion at snooker? uh yeah that player also probably can run the hell out at 8ball with very little transition.

national champion at artistic pool? ummmm ok he definitely has got way the best of it at jacking straight up in the air and curving the cueball 360 degrees to come straight back down table to make the 8 hanging. I tend to think most good open players would have to try him some though.

artistic pool and speed pool champs who have never won anything playing regular pool deserve a shot in the bartable 8ball open. There is no correlation between these cuesports that lends any credibility to your argument. But dont take my word on it...take the word of even your buddy ref who told you the same thing when you tried to knock that guy at the tourny and get him DQ.

Two other guys have already come on here who know this guy personally and have said hes fairly rated as an open player. If anyone owes an apology it should be you to Jason for trying to get him DQ at nationals and then b1tching about his handicap here on AZ.
  
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05-24-2012, 07:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masayoshi View Post
He was getting on your case because your posts were two faced, which I have to agree with.

You said


Yet you implied that you tried to get your ref friend to disqualified him based on those results. You didn't directly say that you were trying to get him DQ'ed, but the only reason to bring that to the attention to BCAPL officials would be because you want to win by forfeit even though you know that speed pool has nothing to do with actual pool.

Then you go on to call the BCAPL somewhat hypocritical because they allow a national champion into the event. This might be the case were it not for your self-admitted fact that speed pool has jack shit to do with normal pool. You might as well try disqualifying golfers, bowlers, and poker players while you are at it because they have more skills that translate to pool playing skill than speed pool and trick shots.

The points you bring up about 9 ball players and snooker players not being eligible for the 8 ball event isn't relevant to your argument because snooker and 9 ball skills actually do translate to 8 ball skill.
Eric is the person who brought the Jump Pool champion into the conversation. I guess I am confused.... doesn't one require cue handling and ball making skills to play speed pool the same as to play any other recognized cue sport?

I guess Eric or you would play anyone regardless even if you knew their abilities or skill level. I commend you!!! I'm just questioning the BCAPL policy in the area of eligibility. Other examples about previous junior champions being allowed to play in the open come to mind. As soon as I became aware of who I was playing in the first round did I attempt to question eligibility. I did bring this to light PRIOR to any play versus DQing someone AFTER the final or once the competition actually began.

As far as my referee friend checking on eligibility was the mere fact that he was already in Vegas and could check with Bill Stock direct. I already knew who Jason was and it surprised me he was playing in the open versus advanced or master. Based solely on BCAPL policy about placing players in the correct level. Once they confirmed his eligibility I ACCEPTED THIS and played!

I only brought my situation up now based on the intent of this thread about 2 Taiwanese players being DQ'd based on their assumed skill level.


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05-24-2012, 07:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by uwate View Post
national champion at 9ball? uh yeah that player plays good 8ball for sure

national champion at snooker? uh yeah that player also probably can run the hell out at 8ball with very little transition.

national champion at artistic pool? ummmm ok he definitely has got way the best of it at jacking straight up in the air and curving the cueball 360 degrees to come straight back down table to make the 8 hanging. I tend to think most good open players would have to try him some though.

artistic pool and speed pool champs who have never won anything playing regular pool deserve a shot in the bartable 8ball open. There is no correlation between these cuesports that lends any credibility to your argument. But dont take my word on it...take the word of even your buddy ref who told you the same thing when you tried to knock that guy at the tourny and get him DQ.

Two other guys have already come on here who know this guy personally and have said hes fairly rated as an open player. If anyone owes an apology it should be you to Jason for trying to get him DQ at nationals and then b1tching about his handicap here on AZ.
WOW.... this is harsh. Again I was confirming eligibility PRIOR to any play. I don't care who I'm playing against. Replace Jason with player X. You substitute the name. Once his eligibility was confirmed, I dropped it and played.

The whole apology thing was based on Eric making assumptions about me and my playing abilities without him knowing me or what my actual abilities are. Also note sarcasm through the use of emoticons.


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05-24-2012, 07:52 AM

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Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Eric is the person who brought the Jump Pool champion into the conversation. I guess I am confused.... doesn't one require cue handling and ball making skills to play speed pool the same as to play any other recognized cue sport?
Speed pool is as much recognized cue sport as miniature golf is a recognized club sport. Actually, probably less.

Quote:
I guess Eric or you would play anyone regardless even if you knew their abilities or skill level. I commend you!!! I'm just questioning the BCAPL policy in the area of eligibility. Other examples about previous junior champions being allowed to play in the open come to mind. As soon as I became aware of who I was playing in the first round did I attempt to question eligibility. I did bring this to light PRIOR to any play versus DQing someone AFTER the final or once the competition actually began.
Again, the issue is not that you complained about his eligibility, its that you complained about his eligibility even though you know that his titles mean nothing toward real pool. You seem to just have been looking for an easy way into the next round.

Junior national champions are the same deal. Sure there are some pro-level junior players, but there are also often times weaker champions because it is not an entirely open field and there are usually few participants although taking a junior title certainly holds more weight towards having game than a speed pool championship.
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As far as my referee friend checking on eligibility was the mere fact that he was already in Vegas and could check with Bill Stock direct. I already knew who Jason was and it surprised me he was playing in the open versus advanced or master. Based solely on BCAPL policy about placing players in the correct level. Once they confirmed his eligibility I ACCEPTED THIS and played!
Good for you, but what option did you have? I guess you could have held your breath and stomped your feet until they DQ'ed him.
Quote:
I only brought my situation up now based on the intent of this thread about 2 Taiwanese players being DQ'd based on their assumed skill level.
  
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05-24-2012, 08:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Masayoshi View Post
Speed pool is as much recognized cue sport as miniature golf is a recognized club sport. Actually, probably less.


Again, the issue is not that you complained about his eligibility, its that you complained about his eligibility even though you know that his titles mean nothing toward real pool. You seem to just have been looking for an easy way into the next round.
Now we are getting into semantics. Boy would I love to make it through every round by whatever means I can within the letter of the law. BEFORE I FORGET I AM BEING SARCASTIC. I enjoy the competition regardless of who I play because I enjoy the sport and ALL aspects of the sport.

So you and others don't consider Speed Pool as REAL POOL. It still requires the same skill levels as say playing other forms of cue sports. You're still playing position, you're still making balls, you still have a game plan and what strategy to use. Your main opponent is the clock. I forgot instead of getting ball in hand on a foul you are penalized with time penalties. I seem to recall the only difference is you aren't penalized for a ball not hitting a rail. You still have to make a legal shot the same as in 8-ball if you are in round one or round two. Sure seems like REAL POOL to me.

But hey what do I know about playing pool according to Eric or others....

Now let's focus on the two Taiwanese players that were actually DQ'd.


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