Gold Cup table

youngstownkid · Nov 15, 2010

I have a Gold Cup, which I'm told is an exact imitation of the Gold Crown II. About 2 years ago, I set it up myself - quadruple shimmed the pockets, used Championship Tour Edition K66 profile cushions, and Championship Tour Edition felt.

My rails are slower relative to Diamond professional and smart tables, so I'm ready to get to work to make my table play as close as possible to the diamonds. I just don't know what to do. I have read that Gold Crowns use k55 profile, so if my table is supposedly an exact copycat, then I probably put the wrong profile on the rails, so I'll look to get some Diamond black in a k55 profile. The price certainly is right. I guess I can even afford to experiment, but I'd prefer not to go thru this and do it wrong.

I'm fine with the rails banking a bit short the way the Diamonds do, since that's common to where I play, I might as well get used to it.

The rail height is an inch and a half. What should the rail height be?

Also, as I mentioned, I put four shims on each side of the pocket, and you can tell. When I put new cushions on, I would like to do a better job, but I would have to add something onto the rails for the cushions to attach to in order to not have to resort to using multiple shims to achieve 4" or less pockets. Any thoughts?

I understand people are busy, so help is always greatly appreciated.

reverend · Nov 15, 2010

youngstownkid said:
I have a Gold Cup, which I'm told is an exact imitation of the Gold Crown II. About 2 years ago, I set it up myself - quadruple shimmed the pockets, used Championship Tour Edition K66 profile cushions, and Championship Tour Edition felt.

My rails are slower relative to Diamond professional and smart tables, so I'm ready to get to work to make my table play as close as possible to the diamonds. I just don't know what to do. I have read that Gold Crowns use k55 profile, so if my table is supposedly an exact copycat, then I probably put the wrong profile on the rails, so I'll look to get some Diamond black in a k55 profile. The price certainly is right. I guess I can even afford to experiment, but I'd prefer not to go thru this and do it wrong.

I'm fine with the rails banking a bit short the way the Diamonds do, since that's common to where I play, I might as well get used to it.

The rail height is an inch and a half. What should the rail height be?

Also, as I mentioned, I put four shims on each side of the pocket, and you can tell. When I put new cushions on, I would like to do a better job, but I would have to add something onto the rails for the cushions to attach to in order to not have to resort to using multiple shims to achieve 4" or less pockets. Any thoughts?

I understand people are busy, so help is always greatly appreciated.

To answer one of your questions about the 4 shims on the end of the rail, the proper way to do it is to extend the subrails. Do a search for that and there are many threads on the topic. Here is a pic of a gold crown 1 rail I just did. The plywood is the extension on the end.

Club Billiards · Nov 15, 2010

youngstownkid said:
I have a Gold Cup, which I'm told is an exact imitation of the Gold Crown II. About 2 years ago, I set it up myself - quadruple shimmed the pockets, used Championship Tour Edition K66 profile cushions, and Championship Tour Edition felt.

My rails are slower relative to Diamond professional and smart tables, so I'm ready to get to work to make my table play as close as possible to the diamonds. I just don't know what to do. I have read that Gold Crowns use k55 profile, so if my table is supposedly an exact copycat, then I probably put the wrong profile on the rails, so I'll look to get some Diamond black in a k55 profile. The price certainly is right. I guess I can even afford to experiment, but I'd prefer not to go thru this and do it wrong.

I'm fine with the rails banking a bit short the way the Diamonds do, since that's common to where I play, I might as well get used to it.

The rail height is an inch and a half. What should the rail height be?

Also, as I mentioned, I put four shims on each side of the pocket, and you can tell. When I put new cushions on, I would like to do a better job, but I would have to add something onto the rails for the cushions to attach to in order to not have to resort to using multiple shims to achieve 4" or less pockets. Any thoughts?

I understand people are busy, so help is always greatly appreciated.

Subrail extensions are definitely the way to go. Are you going to try to do the work yourself?

youngstownkid · Nov 16, 2010

Yes, I plan on doing the work myself. After reading the articles mentioned, I may even have to go out and get some bondo and extend the shelf of the pocket as well.

I'm really looking to improve my game, but don't have the cash to order a new Diamond ProAm just yet, similarly I probably wouldn't want to fork over the dough to have someone do the work for me either.

Dartman · Nov 16, 2010

youngstownkid said:
...After reading the articles mentioned, I may even have to go out and get some bondo and extend the shelf of the pocket as well. ...

Quit reading.

youngstownkid · Nov 17, 2010

wow, thanks so much for posting your thoughts on the matter, your insight is tremendously appreciated.

Dartman · Nov 17, 2010

A lot of people get a little too anal about table work and extending a slate shelf is about as anal as it gets. One is better served buying a Diamond then trying to rig a table to play exactly like one - which it won't.

Ideal cushion nose height is 1 7/16". If you flubbed by putting K66 on a table that calls for K55 then the nose height is too high resulting in slower ball rebound. If the height of the subrail is 1.25" then K55 would be the correct cushion and should fix that problem.

Quadrupled the pocket facings?

Pull all that stuff off and do proper rail extensions with 1 set of facings for each pocket. This procedure along with angle measurements has been posted along with pics so it's not overly difficult for someone with a bit of technical ability.

These 2 things alone will get your table playing considerably better.

Here's a little better defined pic of a subrail extension prior to
installing new rubber -

JPAlexis · Nov 17, 2010

Gold Cups

Gold cups have K66 rails.

jpa

youngstownkid · Dec 9, 2010

JPAlexis said:
Gold cups have K66 rails.

jpa

I had already ordered the k55 cushions from diamond

They said I could return them, but since they don't have k66, I'll probably just make an alteration on the rails so that they fit. As long as I get it at 1 7/16", i should be fine, right? (It's not like the lie angle should change more than +/- a degree, so that shouldn't have an effect.)

youngstownkid · Dec 9, 2010

Dartman said:
A lot of people get a little too anal about table work and extending a slate shelf is about as anal as it gets. One is better served buying a Diamond then trying to rig a table to play exactly like one - which it won't.

Ideal cushion nose height is 1 7/16". If you flubbed by putting K66 on a table that calls for K55 then the nose height is too high resulting in slower ball rebound. If the height of the subrail is 1.25" then K55 would be the correct cushion and should fix that problem.

Quadrupled the pocket facings? Pull all that stuff off and do proper rail extensions with 1 set of facings for each pocket. This procedure along with angle measurements has been posted along with pics so it's not overly difficult for someone with a bit of technical ability.

These 2 things alone will get your table playing considerably better.

Here's a little better defined pic of a subrail extension prior to
installing new rubber -

I have a friend doing the subrail extensions for me, I asked him to make them 3/4", since I want 4" pockets. (If it's slightly under, that's fine.)

As far as extending a shelve, idk. I'll skip that this time, the pockets will be a little tighter, and won't be quite as square, so they should be more challenging. I'll skip the shelf bit for now. (Probably isn't a good idea to make too many adjustments all at once.)

QuickEdward · Dec 9, 2010

Do much more tweaking to that wannabe and it'll end up being a "Two girls and a cup" table.

Dartman · Dec 9, 2010

youngstownkid said:
I had already ordered the k55 cushions from diamond They said I could return them, but since they don't have k66, I'll probably just make an alteration on the rails so that they fit. As long as I get it at 1 7/16", i should be fine, right? (It's not like the lie angle should change more than +/- a degree, so that shouldn't have an effect.)

Doubt you're going to be happy or maintain correct playfield dimensions with this sort of jury rigging. Suggest you return the 55's and find a set of 66's which is what the table calls for.

LCCS · Dec 9, 2010

youngstownkid said:
I had already ordered the k55 cushions from diamond They said I could return them, but since they don't have k66, I'll probably just make an alteration on the rails so that they fit. As long as I get it at 1 7/16", i should be fine, right? (It's not like the lie angle should change more than +/- a degree, so that shouldn't have an effect.)

LOL Do it correct with correct profile.

youngstownkid · Dec 22, 2010

I finally did return the Black Diamond k-55 cushions. Now I'm back to the drawing board on which cushions to get. I was initially dissapointed with the speed of the Championship Tour Edition cushions. I see that the cost of Artemis went down a little from what I remembered. It's now $185. Is Artemis still the way to go? I haven't seen much on Superspeed cushions lately.

(My friend was holding off on the subrail extensions until I made the decision on whether or not we were going to adjust the rails to fit the incorrect profile, so the project is going slow, thank goodness I still have my other table to play on.)

TheBook · Dec 22, 2010

I am not a table mechanic but a do it yourself person. I do almost everything myself. I have read many threads about redoing tables. I have learned a lot.

My advice from what I have learned is to leave the table work to the pros. You are investing a lot of money in materials that you will be throwing away if not done properly (from your thread you have already done that). There is a lot more to doing a table than having the right materials. The stuff has to be installed properly.

The other is if you want a table to play like a Diamond get a Diamond. Cut your loses and don't try to make silk out of a sows ear. It won't happen.

If you have a lot of money and time to waste or just want a hobby project than try doing it yourself. If you want a table to play right do more homework looking into getting a good mechanic to do it right.

I was going to attempt redoing my table but decided against it. I had it done by one of the mechanics on this forum. It was a good decision.

Dartman · Dec 22, 2010

Championship also has a Pro-Am cushion in K66 which is a little softer then the Tour Ed cushions.
What's the nose height of the cushions presently on the table? If too high you'll get slow cushion action.

Jim Vondrell · Dec 22, 2010

Did you check the diamond cushions on the rails before returning them because if your nose height was to high with k66 then the k55's may have been better with other measurements to check as well. To replace with k66 again you will have to modify the subrails down a couple degrees to drop the nose height were it should be if it was to high

Dartman · Dec 23, 2010

Jim Vondrell said:
Did you check the diamond cushions on the rails before returning them because if your nose height was to high with k66 then the k55's may have been better with other measurements to check as well. To replace with k66 again you will have to modify the subrails down a couple degrees to drop the nose height were it should be if it was to high

We're flying one-eyed here. Just reread the OP and he said rail height (assuming nose height) is 1.5" using 66. Someone else commented the table takes 66 so it seems we're assuming this is correct. Guessing he hasn't removed the existing cushions yet so we have no read on the height of the subrail face as a better indicator of the right cushion to use (assuming no previous modification). If there's a gap at the bottom of the present cushion it's probably wrong.

youngstownkid · Dec 24, 2010

TheBook said:
I am not a table mechanic but a do it yourself person. I do almost everything myself. I have read many threads about redoing tables. I have learned a lot.

My advice from what I have learned is to leave the table work to the pros. You are investing a lot of money in materials that you will be throwing away if not done properly (from your thread you have already done that). There is a lot more to doing a table than having the right materials. The stuff has to be installed properly.

The other is if you want a table to play like a Diamond get a Diamond. Cut your loses and don't try to make silk out of a sows ear. It won't happen.

If you have a lot of money and time to waste or just want a hobby project than try doing it yourself. If you want a table to play right do more homework looking into getting a good mechanic to do it right.

I was going to attempt redoing my table but decided against it. I had it done by one of the mechanics on this forum. It was a good decision.

If I had the money to buy a diamond, I would have done so. 3 years ago, I got a Gold Cup table 9' for $400 from a friend who closed a pool hall. After Championship felt and Championship Tour Edition Cushions and tools, I have about $700 total invested in the table. I recently bought two more for $500 total from the same friend. I set up one in my friends basement, and the other one is the one where we're adding 3/4" subrail extensions. So I've got the table, Simonis 760, and Artemis totalling around $630 in it, and I plan on selling my existing Gold Cup for whatever I can get out of it. ($700?) So my point is, the reason I'm doing this is because I can't justify spending that many K's on a new Diamond ProAm 9' table of my dreams. Anybody would can justify spending this on a table wouldn't be willing to go through the hell of putting a table together like I'm doing, trying to make this Gold Cup play as good as I can.

youngstownkid · Dec 24, 2010

Dartman said:
Championship also has a Pro-Am cushion in K66 which is a little softer then the Tour Ed cushions.
What's the nose height of the cushions presently on the table? If too high you'll get slow cushion action.

So are you saying the ProAm plays faster or slower than the Tour Edition?

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