Handicapping system for singles tournament

L

lawyersenan

Sanan Shirinov
Hi everybody,

I would like to get some info about handicapping systems used for the singles tournaments.

In Baku, Azerbaijan, we have small but fast-growing pool community, and we try to hold weekly tournaments. But we have some issues with handicapping.

Is there any app or online resource which can be used for handicapping?

Thanks for your responses.

Best regards
 
C

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lawyersenan said:
Hi everybody,

I would like to get some info about handicapping systems used for the singles tournaments.

In Baku, Azerbaijan, we have small but fast-growing pool community, and we try to hold weekly tournaments. But we have some issues with handicapping.

Is there any app or online resource which can be used for handicapping?

Thanks for your responses.

Best regards
Click to expand...
Keep it as simple as possible initially. Rank all players in no more than 3 or 4 skill levels and utulize games on the wire spots, not ball spots.

Of course to do this, you have to have a tournament director who is very knowledgeable of the game as well as of the accurate skill levels of all the players. It’s not a perfect System, but an honest non-biased tournament director can usually rank a player Accurately relatively quickly with some observation.
 
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Dan_B

Dan_B

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
...man, this is a cool diversion, too Baku.

I think lawyer is defined the same there, I've always found it interesting that law in the
middle east, turkey and so on is a BIG topic of debate there, at least in the English speaking version.

From what little I know of history you're in the heart of the Old World where something called snooker is big, is that what you're playing?

I understand that China has gained influence there also, are you playing Chinese 8 ball?

If you've picked up some of those bad habits of playing 9ball or that god forbidden
1-pocket, there's fargorate.com. They also have handicapping for the mostly
civilized world also like 8ball and 10ball.

What size balls are you playing with?
 
C

Cron

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bubble sort.

Use match quantity and ladders, forget player ratings.

For instance, the top level is 4. Everyone starts at level 1 and has 4 matches/comparisons to get there. Some wom"t be strong enough to climb all the way up and those that climb up and lose fall back down or stay (many ways to tweak this).

I think you get the idea, to some of you, you'll recognize it as "Bubble Sort". If you understand very, very basic math you can find examples all over with tweaks and variations that might suit you. In context of pool players, it's great with with competitive placement, simple enough for anyone to understand and most importantly assumes no bias/weight of entrants thus all values/entrants must show their weight for the sorting/win. It's entirely based on intervals.

You'll notice it's near identical to how tournaments are played once everyone is at the same skill level, but when you assume no weight/bias everyone has to prove their place, regardless of anything else.
 
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L

lawyersenan

Sanan Shirinov
Dan_B said:
...man, this is a cool diversion, too Baku.

I think lawyer is defined the same there, I've always found it interesting that law in the
middle east, turkey and so on is a BIG topic of debate there, at least in the English speaking version.

From what little I know of history you're in the heart of the Old World where something called snooker is big, is that what you're playing?

I understand that China has gained influence there also, are you playing Chinese 8 ball?

If you've picked up some of those bad habits of playing 9ball or that god forbidden
1-pocket, there's fargorate.com. They also have handicapping for the mostly
civilized world also like 8ball and 10ball.

What size balls are you playing with?
Click to expand...

People in here mostly play Russian pyramid, but there are few pool players also. We don't have any Chinese pool tables, but we have snooker tables.

BTW, we play rotation games - 9 and 10 ball, some 8 ball. I am personally a big fan of 1 pkt, but unfortunately I don't have anyone to play with.
 
L

lawyersenan

Sanan Shirinov
We were using Russian handicapping site called LLB (https://www.llb.su/). Now they made their site non-free as it was before, and they charge users some amount of money which we cannot afford.

It was basically an algorithm that gave players ratings from 600 to 1200 approximately. If you win, you get 5 to 15 rating points depending on who you had beat. If you win against a player with a higher rating, you will get more points.

Handicapping was a game for a 100 point difference of rating. For example, let's say I am a player with 700 rating and I play with a player with a rating of 930, then I get 2 games on wire.

Basically that was the system we played with. I guess it looks like a poor man's FargoRate.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
lawyersenan said:
We play 9 and 10 ball
Click to expand...
A common way is to give the weaker player some number of games "on the wire".

If you can find or generate Fargo ratings for your players, the FargoRate website has an app that offers handicapped matches based on the ratings of the two players. You can select the amount of advantage the better player has in the match. See https://fairmatch.fargorate.com/ and then click on "Find a Fair Match". The largest problem is to have ratings for all the players and turn in results to FargoRate to keep the ratings current.

Alternatively, the NPL system can be run without computers and the ratings are entirely local. A description of it is at
http://www.sfbilliards.com/miscellaneous.htm
as the 12th item.

The NPL also handicaps by having the better player race to a higher number of games.

It is inherently 100% handicapped. Trying to make it partial handicaps ruins the rating adjustment algorithm. That can be patched, but it would be work to do so. If the better players demand an advantage, you have to figure some way to do that outside the system, such as charge them a smaller entry fee or hold non-handicapped events.
 
L

lawyersenan

Sanan Shirinov
Bob Jewett said:
A common way is to give the weaker player some number of games "on the wire".

If you can find or generate Fargo ratings for your players, the FargoRate website has an app that offers handicapped matches based on the ratings of the two players. You can select the amount of advantage the better player has in the match. See https://fairmatch.fargorate.com/ and then click on "Find a Fair Match". The largest problem is to have ratings for all the players and turn in results to FargoRate to keep the ratings current.

Alternatively, the NPL system can be run without computers and the ratings are entirely local. A description of it is at
http://www.sfbilliards.com/miscellaneous.htm
as the 12th item.

The NPL also handicaps by having the better player race to a higher number of games.

It is inherently 100% handicapped. Trying to make it partial handicaps ruins the rating adjustment algorithm. That can be patched, but it would be work to do so. If the better players demand an advantage, you have to figure some way to do that outside the system, such as charge them a smaller entry fee or hold non-handicapped events.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response.

I had a look at NPL system and it is similar to LLB that we used.

The main problem seems to keep track of everything, but I think this is a great tool.

Appreciate your assistance.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Another system to look at is the FargoRate League Management System. It would take care of the bookkeeping and it provides the handicaps for various length matches so it would be very easy to use. The listed charge for independent leagues is $15/player per year. See https://fargorate.com/lms for more info.
 
L

lawyersenan

Sanan Shirinov
Bob Jewett said:
Another system to look at is the FargoRate League Management System. It would take care of the bookkeeping and it provides the handicaps for various length matches so it would be very easy to use. The listed charge for independent leagues is $15/player per year. See https://fargorate.com/lms for more info.
Click to expand...

I noticed LMS before, but I think it is designed for team plays only. I couldn't find singles style of play in it.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
lawyersenan said:
I noticed LMS before, but I think it is designed for team plays only. I couldn't find singles style of play in it.
Click to expand...
Maybe you can set the players per team to one? You should contact Mike Page if he does not chime in here.
 
T

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Handicap the entry fee... Not expensive for the strong, but cheap for the weak. You need to donate to be considered weak.

Strong players are supposed to win, and shouldn't have a problem paying $20-30 to play in a straight race tournament against a possible weak player that has to pry $5 out of their pockets.

In my experience, game/ball handicaps kill tournaments.
 
C

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
lawyersenan said:
Hi everybody,

I would like to get some info about handicapping systems used for the singles tournaments.

In Baku, Azerbaijan, we have small but fast-growing pool community, and we try to hold weekly tournaments. But we have some issues with handicapping.

Is there any app or online resource which can be used for handicapping?

Thanks for your responses.

Best regards
Click to expand...

Arizona use to have a Handicaping Tournment System, it was a NUMBER STSTEM from "4" Lowest to "10" Pro-Level.

Problem was a person would go to one of the people who gave out the "DARDS", they would hide true speed, cleanup for a while, and then move on.

A "4" was a total Novie who could hold a Cue, and might know what end to Chalk.

Most of the Tournment were SEVEN and Under, so the better players had few Tournaments to play in.

Even the Open Tournment were OK, but because the BEST Players were in em, they alway won.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The_JV said:
Handicap the entry fee... Not expensive for the strong, but cheap for the weak. You need to donate to be considered weak.

Strong players are supposed to win, and shouldn't have a problem paying $20-30 to play in a straight race tournament against a possible weak player that has to pry $5 out of their pockets.

In my experience, game/ball handicaps kill tournaments.
Click to expand...

I don't like money handicaps, all they ensure is that the weaker players lose less, they don't make the weaker players have an equal chance or winning.

To have even events you need to have a certain area and group of players, such as weaker players that want to play good no matter what vs those that want an even chance or at least a closer chance. So if the 20 C players want to strive to be B players an that is why they play, sure even and play cheaper. But if it's 20 C players that want to advance in the tournament no matter their skill, then you need handicaps.
 
Dan_B

Dan_B

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Maybe you can set the players per team to one? You should contact Mike Page if he does not chime in here.
Click to expand...

yep, there's a way to do it with the options, once in, when entering scores,
works beautifully.
Nothing like a singles' Hard Fork Racing tournament.

:cool:
 
T

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
hang-the-9 said:
I don't like money handicaps, all they ensure is that the weaker players lose less, they don't make the weaker players have an equal chance or winning.
Click to expand...

Fair enough... I just look at it in different way. Weaker players get the opportunity to play against top talent for small money. Weak players shouldn't have an equal chance to win. Penalizing players that have put the time in to gain skill is counter intuitive to the growth of talent. You want to win...? Put time in, learn how to play, and hope for a decent draw.

A bit of a tangent but a good example of what happens...:
20yrs ago the tournaments in my home town were epic. Every Sunday we had a 30-35 player staggered entry field. I think it was $40 for the best, $20 for the weak.
Between tourney and calcutta, you could win+1k. 75% of that field were very strong. The other 25% had no shot what so ever. People drove distances to play in this house tourney and would pay in advance to ensure a spot the following week. Until the owner started catering to the casual player who wanted the world in games, but would also spend more at the bar. These novice drunkards kept complaining. The handicaps kept growing. The fields kept shrinking.... The calcutta disappeared because novice drunkards want to hit balls for cheap all day, (already staggered entry) and claim that they were the best on that day. Not support the tournament. Once the grind for the actual players became unworthy of the winnings, it died completely... Shame. 20yrs later and there still isn't a local tournament worth playing in.

I know... "back in my day"... blah blah blah...lol

Not saying this is a fore gone conclusion for ball/game handicap systems. Just my experience

To have even events you need to have a certain area and group of players, such as weaker players that want to play good no matter what vs those that want an even chance or at least a closer chance. So if the 20 C players want to strive to be B players an that is why they play, sure even and play cheaper. But if it's 20 C players that want to advance in the tournament no matter their skill, then you need handicaps.
Click to expand...

Yep, you kinda need to pick your poison. Do you want to grow the game, or cater to the weak and uninitiated..? In my youth I saw tournaments as an opportunity to go up against guys that I couldn't afford to gamble with, and with luck learn something from the experience.

I also don't believe in handing out participation ribbons just for showing up either
 
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