Ball-in-hand ethical question

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PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The other night, while playing 8-ball in a pool league, I miscued badly and failed to hit the object ball with the cue ball.

My opponent then took his shot from the misqued cue ball position instead of taking ball-in-hand.

After my opponent missed his shot, I asked him why he didn't take BIH and he said he didn't know that I fouled. I had thought that my opponent was watching me play and since it was such an obvious cue ball foul due to the miscue, he should have known that he had BIH.

So my general question is, if your opponent is watching you play and there's an obvious foul, is it up to the opponent to be paying attention and take the cue ball-in-hand?

What if my opponent isn't paying attention and consequently, he doesn't see the foul and take BIH? How am I supposed to know that he isn't paying attention?
 
RBLilly

RBLilly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PoolSharkAllen said:
The other night, while playing 8-ball in a pool league, I miscued badly and failed to hit the object ball with the cue ball.

My opponent then took his shot from the misqued cue ball position instead of taking ball-in-hand.

After my opponent missed his shot, I asked him why he didn't take BIH and he said he didn't know that I fouled. I had thought that my opponent was watching me play and since it was such an obvious cue ball foul due to the miscue, he should have known that he had BIH.

So my general question is, if your opponent is watching you play and there's an obvious foul, is it up to the opponent to be paying attention and take the cue ball-in-hand?

What if my opponent isn't paying attention and consequently, he doesn't see the foul and take BIH? How am I supposed to know that he isn't paying attention?
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I have seen this many, many times.............and I have mixed feelings about it!

If we are playing league, and my money isn't on the line then I will tell you that you have ball in hand!

If we are playing in a tournament, and my money is on the line then I am going to say he should be paying attention to the match.

Maybe that isn't the right ethics in these situations, but I think that is how I would look at it!
 
shanesinnott

shanesinnott

Follow Through
Silver Member
If I foul, I ALWAYS tell my opponent, no matter what the situation or what is on the line. He may or may not have been paying attention, but if the situation was reversed, I would want and expect him to tell me if he fouled. It is the right thing to do.

I learned to play Snooker in Ireland at age 12 and this was taught to me on my first lesson and has stuck with me ever since.
 
mikepage

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PoolSharkAllen said:
The other night, while playing 8-ball in a pool league, I miscued badly and failed to hit the object ball with the cue ball.

My opponent then took his shot from the misqued cue ball position instead of taking ball-in-hand.

[...]
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to think the ethical thing to do--unless it's a well established and widely understood practice to do otherwise in your area/league-- is call a foul on yourself.

Here's my reasoning. A referee, if there was one present, would be standing, not sitting, and he would be walking around the table getting to the right vantage point for any close shots, checking to see whether balls are frozen, and so forth. If you think this is the role your opponent should be taking in a non-refereed match, then by all means put the onus on him to call fouls.

But if you expect him more or less to stay in the chair when you're shooting, to not jump up whenever your body blocks the shot, to not stand with his arms folded just outside your shot line, then it's unreasonable imo to also expect him to call fouls on you.

I know this particular instance was an obvious foul. But I think you should adopt a standard that works across the board
 
Pete

Pete

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Always call the foul. The other night I was real close to the ball and did a light double hit (hit the cue ball, the cue ball hit the OB, and then I followed into the cue ball if there is any question). I called a foul and my oponent didn't even understand the foul. But I have my integrity.

pete
 
42NateBaller

42NateBaller

AKA "Drambuie Dave"
Silver Member
I usually pick up the CB and hand it to my opponent when I foul. Or if they're walking to the table, I move the CB with my cue towards them.

I have ADD, so I'm guilty of not noticing an opponent's foul from time to time. I always appreciate it when someone let's me know.
 
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noRulez

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I feel obligated to call the foul on myself and it just makes things easier. If someone else fouls and doesn't say anything I will always ask if that is ball in hand. I'd rather everyone just own up and call their fouls. I think it's shady not to call fouls on yourself.
 
Drew

Drew

Got a little dog in you?
Silver Member
Lol...usually when I foul, the entire room knows about it. I tend to swear loudly, especially when I miscue. Unless I intentionally foul, everybody knows. But I do call all fouls on myself. I want my opponent to trust me enough to know I won't cheat him/her.
 
buzzsaw

buzzsaw

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I see/hear an opponent call a foul on themselves, whether I am playing or not, I will always go up to that person after the game and shake their hand. I think it's a class act to go beyond personal gain in that situation and I want them to know I appreciate their integrity.
 
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PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Drew said:
I want my opponent to trust me enough to know I won't cheat him/her.
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I too want my opponents to trust me enough to know that I won't cheat them. I do agree that I could have made sure that my opponent knew he had BIH.

However, this ethics situation has to work both ways. There was something else that I didn't mention earlier. My opponent was giving me slug (soft) 8-ball racks all night. One time, for example, he racked the balls so that there was an obvious 1/8-inch gap between the 1 and the two adjacent balls. I went over to examine the rack and had him re-rack that rack and many other racks during our match. With the soft racks that he was giving me, don't tell me that he wasn't trying to obtain an advantage on my break shots.

I'm relatively new to playing on pool leagues so it's interesting what "getting down in the trenches" will do to a person. Of course, two wrongs certainly don't make a right.
 
BazookaJoe

BazookaJoe

Destroyer of stickers
Silver Member
I don't normally speak while playing. If you ask, I'll tell you. But it isn't my job to watch for you. This of course only applies to situations when the outcome actually means something to me.
 
bomber

bomber

Jeopardy Is My Road Game
Silver Member
Call the foul on yourself...its all about integrity. These things tend to have a way of working out in the end. Karma I guess.

Plus, if you are known to call fouls on yourself, then your opponents are more prone to call fouls on themselves...pay it forward.

A lot of times if someone says to me "This hit is gonna be close, do you want to get someone to watch it." I will reply with.."You call it, I trust ya." Might be foolish, but I dont get burned on it...plus, you can learn a lot about people this way.
 
G

GADawg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
shanesinnott said:
If I foul, I ALWAYS tell my opponent, no matter what the situation or what is on the line. He may or may not have been paying attention, but if the situation was reversed, I would want and expect him to tell me if he fouled. It is the right thing to do.

I learned to play Snooker in Ireland at age 12 and this was taught to me on my first lesson and has stuck with me ever since.
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Me too and I don't even play snooker!

To me not calling a foul on yourself is like stealing something and saying it's OK if you don't get caught.
 
chilli66

chilli66

the chilli is back!
Silver Member
I'll always call a foul on myself & always make sure my opponent knows when he/she has BIH. My conscience wouldn't allow me to do otherwise. I have a pretty low opinion of people who I see try to pull a fast one with things like that.
 
9balllvr

9balllvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
shanesinnott said:
If I foul, I ALWAYS tell my opponent, no matter what the situation or what is on the line. He may or may not have been paying attention, but if the situation was reversed, I would want and expect him to tell me if he fouled. It is the right thing to do.

I learned to play Snooker in Ireland at age 12 and this was taught to me on my first lesson and has stuck with me ever since.
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I have to agree with Shanesinnott on this one - ALWAYS tell them.

The only time when I can recall not stopping someone and notifying them was after miscueing, etc. I was disgusted and zoned out without realizing the person did not take BIH until they were in mid-stroke. In that instance, I did not say anything because by then it would only disturb their concentration.
 
jojopiff

jojopiff

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I ALWAYS call a foul on myself, no exceptions. It's just the way I play, I don't particularly care if my opponent does because I'm always watching if I'm playing league so I will usually know.

Preston
 
Mike Templeton

Mike Templeton

Confidence........
Silver Member
shanesinnott said:
If I foul, I ALWAYS tell my opponent, no matter what the situation or what is on the line. He may or may not have been paying attention, but if the situation was reversed, I would want and expect him to tell me if he fouled. It is the right thing to do.
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Ditto......................
 
steev

steev

Lazy User
Silver Member
Wow, aren't you guys the upstanding members of society. League/tournament play, I won't say a thing. It's up to them to pay attention, I know I sure do.

I guess I'm just a jerk, but there ya go.

Now, if I'm gambling I'll tell you every time. That's bad karma.

-s

//I know there are others like me out there, y'all just don't wanna post and be seen as a jerk...
 
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PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
9balllvr said:
The only time when I can recall not stopping someone and notifying them was after miscueing, etc. I was disgusted and zoned out without realizing the person did not take BIH until they were in mid-stroke. In that instance, I did not say anything because by then it would only disturb their concentration.
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What you described is very similar to what happened to me the other night. I sat down immediately after I misqued. However, when I saw my opponent lining up to take his shot without taking BIH, I even called out to this person but apparently he didn't hear me due to the background noise. I didn't say anything further as I didn't want to disturb his concentration.

In your situation and in mine, I think we both could have tried harder to ensure that the opponent knew they had BIH.

Everything happened so quickly that I really didn't reflect about what transpired until after the match was over...which is why I'm asking about it here in this forum.
 
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