Potential pro caliber players in APA league

bazkook · Oct 9, 2012

I know many of you have different views on APA but I would like to ask for an honest opinion on a matter I ran into recently.
This weekend I participated in one of the Singles Regionals qualifiers for the National Singles tournament. Many of the players were from around the Atlanta area and one player in particular was expected to easily win the tournament. Although he did not win the tournament and was beaten by perhaps the second best player in the tournament, I could still tell the player had a skill set far superior to even top amateurs.
According to my local league operator, this particular player could possibly be a low level pro based on his stats. He averages only 0.5 innings per game in 8 ball lifetime and has been know to regularly run sets.
I also looked up this player and found numerous pro and open tournaments he has participated in and placed within the top 10 consistently, sometimes besting top pros. However, as far as I know he does not play pool for a living and has a regular job.
My question is should there be a separate division for players such as these in APA, similar to the different divisions found in BCA? If I recall correctly, you cannot play in an APA league if you have characteristics of a professional player and have placed consistently in pro tournaments. In my opinion, allowing players such as the one in question to play APA defeats the purpose of running a handicapped amateur league.
I would just like to get the general opinion about this matter. I have not provided the name of this particular player because I am not sure if the mods would approve of it. I can provide the player's name if it is cool with the mods.

bazkook · Oct 9, 2012

Here is what I found from the following link concerning pro players in APA:

32. NO PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS ALLOWED

This League is intended for amateurs, and the APA reserves the right to reject or cancel the memberships of those individuals whom the APA deems to be professionals. The APA has a variety of criteria for determining professional or amateur status. They include a touring (tournament) membership in any men's or women's professional billiards organization, winning tour points from any of those organizations, being a nationally known money player (a judgment call), or otherwise being recognized as a billiards professional, billiards celebrity or entertainer (noted performers of exhibitions, retired professionals, etc.). The APA reserves the right to rule on the amateur/professional status of any member, and we may consider all, some, or none of the above criteria. Just remember, if you enter a professional event, perform exhibitions, or otherwise behave as a professional, you risk your amateur standing in our association.

Locally, the League Operator and/or the Board of Governors has the option of disallowing participation by an individual who has consistently demonstrated professional characteristics. An individual who is a known money player and is perceived by the League Operator/Board of Governors to make a substantial portion of his living playing pool, rather than having other employment, could fall into this category. An individual who gives exhibitions or lessons for money may fall into this category. A highly skilled individual who is employed as a manager/assistant manager of a billiard room may be categorized as a house pro and could be ineligible for amateur play. The APA does not wish League Operators/Boards of Governors to disallow participation based strictly on ability. There are many skilled amateurs and they are welcome to play in the League.

http://www.poolplayers.com/m/teammanual/general-rules-p7.html

It seems like the only reason the player in question is allowed in APA is because he does not make his primary living from playing pool. However, he has played in various professional tours stops so go figure.

dbldown · Oct 9, 2012

pro level APA player?

Your questrions are well written.

Could there conceivably be a pro level APA player out there, perhaps. Breaking and running ut in 8 ball on a 7 foot Valley versus 9 ball on a 9 foot table is infinately easier. More shots and flexibility in pattern play versus a rotation game. Too bad there isn't a bigger scene for bar-box 8 ball. It could be as big as poker (well almost).

Making it as a pro and making something decent for money means he'd need to move somebody out of the top 8-10 in the USA. He probably is nowhere capable of that. In the spirit of your question I would expect it is okay to mention his name, unless you are afraid of kmocking his action. He probably doesn't get any anyway, if he plays that strongly.

CSykes24 · Oct 9, 2012

dbldown said:
Your questrions are well written.

Could there conceivably be a pro level APA player out there, perhaps. Breaking and running ut in 8 ball on a 7 foot Valley versus 9 ball on a 9 foot table is infinately easier. More shots and flexibility in pattern play versus a rotation game. Too bad there isn't a bigger scene for bar-box 8 ball. It could be as big as poker (well almost).

Making it as a pro and making something decent for money means he'd need to move somebody out of the top 8-10 in the USA. He probably is nowhere capable of that. In the spirit of your question I would expect it is okay to mention his name, unless you are afraid of kmocking his action. He probably doesn't get any anyway, if he plays that strongly.

No. Never.

bazkook · Oct 9, 2012

dbldown said:
Your questrions are well written.

Could there conceivably be a pro level APA player out there, perhaps. Breaking and running ut in 8 ball on a 7 foot Valley versus 9 ball on a 9 foot table is infinately easier. More shots and flexibility in pattern play versus a rotation game. Too bad there isn't a bigger scene for bar-box 8 ball. It could be as big as poker (well almost).

Making it as a pro and making something decent for money means he'd need to move somebody out of the top 8-10 in the USA. He probably is nowhere capable of that. In the spirit of your question I would expect it is okay to mention his name, unless you are afraid of kmocking his action. He probably doesn't get any anyway, if he plays that strongly.

His name is Jeff Crawford and he is from the Atlanta area I believe. He is thought to be the best or at the very least one of the best league players in Atlanta, according another top player in Atlanta I know and trust personally.

JB Cases · Oct 9, 2012

Isn't this what the handicap system is there for? Doesn't sound like he is hiding or sandbagging? So what's the problem, the guy is a very good amateur player who is playing within the rules.

Black Cat 5791 · Oct 9, 2012

APA Masters Division is more suited for him on a regular basis. He's not a Pro by the definition, so why not allow him to play. He's probally a 7 in 8ball and a 9 in 9ball. As for Singles events well it's apart of the league so if he's allowed to play then unfortunately he's qualified for that as well. The only defense is to keep him in his seat.

Black Cat

bazkook · Oct 9, 2012

Black Cat 5791 said:
APA Masters Division is more suited for him on a regular basis. He's not a Pro by the definition, so why not allow him to play. He's probally a 7 in 8ball and a 9 in 9ball. As for Singles events well it's apart of the league so if he's allowed to play then unfortunately he's qualified for that as well. The only defense is to keep him in his seat.

Black Cat

I agree with you about the Masters. I believe there should be a division for higher caliber players such as him. For example, I have been a 6 for a long time in 8 ball and I just moved to an 7 before this weekend. I have only been playing pool seriously for a little over 5 years. I had not been sandbagging; I just had just been on a hot streak recently. However I am nowhere near as capable of breaking and running a set like he is. Can you honestly rank me the same as a player who has been playing much longer than me and has a much more complete skill set? I guess what I'm saying is the handicap system in APA is more flawed than BCA or any other pool league. I consider myself a low 7 while he would be a very high 7 and there should be a system in place to reflect that.
As far as the only defense to beat him, how can you beat possibly beat him if he wins the lag and breaks and runs the set? Don't tell me he should be in an amateur league if he can consistently break and run 5 or more 8-ball games consecutively.

bazkook · Oct 9, 2012

JB Cases said:
Isn't this what the handicap system is there for? Doesn't sound like he is hiding or sandbagging? So what's the problem, the guy is a very good amateur player who is playing within the rules.

No he is not sandbagging but he is the gray area between a pro and a top amateur.

jrt30004 · Oct 9, 2012

so here goes nothing. i don't think jeff will mind, well i hope he won't. if he does i'm sure i'll get a call.
i know jeff well. i have played on apa teams with him, he is currently on my upa 9 ball team and i have played against him in bca and apa since i moved here in 07.
jeff is a great guy and he does shoot a hell of a game. i asked him once about the whole "pro" in the amateur pool league sceario and he explained the following to me.
a guy who pulls a 40+ hour a week job (like he does) has no real shot a being a pro. they can't travel for torunaments and they can't go on the road to be a road player. they can practice limited hours - even if they own a table. so they can't put in the time a pro or raod player does. so while they may be phenominal in the league ranks, pro's pose a challenge for them.
i have gone to watch jeff play in a few open tournaments and on a given day he can win a few matches and even finish in the money, but he has to be at his best, while say shane or johnny or sean putnam can play not at thier top speed and get the win.
as to the person who posted a pro in the apa ranks can never happen, i wouldn't go that far. if the op was at the regionals this weekend i think mitch yarborough (sp?) played as well. i saw him at an apa tournament in canton GA a few months ago and watched him smoke the field. for those that don't know mitch you can look him up. he is bona fide. then there are the road players, gamblers and tournamnet finishers who play league pool. here in GA i can say jeff hooks, tim orange, jeff crawford, andy stewart, terry stewart, scott ruttinger, jason kirkus, betty sessions, dana aft, amy chen have all at one time have played or still play apa and or bca. and those are just the ones i can think of right now.
most of the apa and bca in the atlanta area that these players shoot is played on 8 or 9 ft gold crowns, kim steele or olhausens. so no "well they play small table" bs to be had.
i have posted here before and i'll say it again, i know league pool in a lot of parts of the country is shit. but there are areas, like the one i live in, where we play on good equipment, with strong players.
i'd like to say in closing, jeff beats me like a rented dog. i have posted a story here before about a guy giving me "the hand span" spot and beating my ass, jeff's that guy.

jrt30004 · Oct 9, 2012

JB Cases said:
Isn't this what the handicap system is there for? Doesn't sound like he is hiding or sandbagging? So what's the problem, the guy is a very good amateur player who is playing within the rules.

jeff doesn't sandbag. he's at the highest rating in every league he plays in and any handicapped tournaments i have watched him play in he plays near the top of the chart.
p.s. you have been putting out some nice cases john. people have posted pics of some nice work.

bazkook · Oct 9, 2012

jrt30004 said:
so here goes nothing. i don't think jeff will mind, well i hope he won't. if he does i'm sure i'll get a call.
i know jeff well. i have played on apa teams with him, he is currently on my upa 9 ball team and i have played against him in bca and apa since i moved here in 07.
jeff is a great guy and he does shoot a hell of a game. i asked him once about the whole "pro" in the amateur pool league sceario and he explained the following to me.
a guy who pulls a 40+ hour a week job (like he does) has no real shot a being a pro. they can't travel for torunaments and they can't go on the road to be a road player. they can practice limited hours - even if they own a table. so they can't put in the time a pro or raod player does. so while they may be phenominal in the league ranks, pro's pose a challenge for them.
i have gone to watch jeff play in a few open tournaments and on a given day he can win a few matches and even finish in the money, but he has to be at his best, while say shane or johnny or sean putnam can play not at thier top speed and get the win.
as to the person who posted a pro in the apa ranks can never happen, i wouldn't go that far. if the op was at the regionals this weekend i think mitch yarborough (sp?) played as well. i saw him at an apa tournament in canton GA a few months ago and watched him smoke the field. for those that don't know mitch you can look him up. he is bona fide. then there are the road players, gamblers and tournamnet finishers who play league pool. here in GA i can say jeff hooks, tim orange, jeff crawford, andy stewart, terry stewart, scott ruttinger, jason kirkus, betty sessions, dana aft, amy chen have all at one time have played or still play apa and or bca. and those are just the ones i can think of right now.
most of the apa and bca in the atlanta area that these players shoot is played on 8 or 9 ft gold crowns, kim steele or olhausens. so no "well they play small table" bs to be had.
i have posted here before and i'll say it again, i know league pool in a lot of parts of the country is shit. but there are areas, like the one i live in, where we play on good equipment, with strong players.
i'd like to say in closing, jeff beats me like a rented dog. i have posted a story here before about a guy giving me "the hand span" spot and beating my ass, jeff's that guy.

Great post. I think he's a hell of a player and I'm sure he's a great guy. It's nothing personal what I said about him. I just think APA should review the handicap system and potentially alter it or create a new division like the Masters.

backplaying · Oct 9, 2012

bazkook said:
I agree with you about the Masters. I believe there should be a division for higher caliber players such as him. For example, I have been a 6 for a long time in 8 ball and I just moved to an 7 before this weekend. I have only been playing pool seriously for a little over 5 years. I had not been sandbagging; I just had just been on a hot streak recently. However I am nowhere near as capable of breaking and running a set like he is. Can you honestly rank me the same as a player who has been playing much longer than me and has a much more complete skill set? I guess what I'm saying is the handicap system in APA is more flawed than BCA or any other pool league. I consider myself a low 7 while he would be a very high 7 and there should be a system in place to reflect that.
As far as the only defense to beat him, how can you beat possibly beat him if he wins the lag and breaks and runs the set? Don't tell me he should be in an amateur league if he can consistently break and run 5 or more 8-ball games consecutively.

No one consistently runs sets out. If he works 40hrs a week, why shouldn't he be able to play in a amateur tournament since thats what he is? You want to penalize someone because he plays better than you! If you have natural talent you to can put in the work and improve.

jrt30004 · Oct 9, 2012

bazkook said:
Great post. I think he's a hell of a player and I'm sure he's a great guy. It's nothing personal what I said about him. I just think APA should review the handicap system and potentially alter it or create a new division like the Masters.

i know where you're coming from and i know you weren't saying anything bad about jeff. and i hear ya. it's tough to fade playing those players. jeff can tell you i am a legitamate 6 in 8 ball and 7 in 9 ball. i play as a 7 in bca and a 6 in upa. and all that equals is i can't hang with jeff or the guys i mentioned even with the handicap. like i said those guys have to play thier best to beat a pro, i have to be on my best day to beat them.
i wish we had a masters division closer to me. there are only a few of them in our area and i know that's why some of us don't play masters. we did have one for a while and jeff and a few others played in it. i loved it. i even got my girlfriend to play in it and she's only a 4/5. neither one of us won a lot but we had fun. i think she learned a lot playing those guys. it is definately not meant for lower handicaps though, especially if they don't have a thick skin. if you can't run out consistantly, you'd better be learning and not mind doing it.

ronscuba · Oct 9, 2012

How many leagues are in your area ? Are there separate beginner and intermediate leagues ?

nobcitypool · Oct 9, 2012

Seems to me if he plays in professional events, finishes in the money and accepts that money, he is technically a professional. That's certainly the way it is in golf (If I remember correctly, there is a very low limit of dollar value you can accept in prizes for winning an amateur golf tournament, go above it and you're considered a pro). By NCAA rules, an athlete is pretty much prohibited from taking money for any reason related to their being a college athlete or they lose their eligibility.

With that said, I wish the guy was in our APA league. I'd love to get the chance to play a guy of that caliber once or twice each session. I'm not good enough to think about seriously challenging the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. best players in the state therefore, I'm not losing anything to this guy anyway in the big tournaments. And if I somehow got to be in the top 4 to where it might be an issue, I'd say bring him on! I'm not confused about what I want out of pool nor do I have visions of grandeur. If I want to go to Vegas, I can afford my own air fare and hotel room, I don't need to rely on APA to pay for it. These folks that treat an APA match like it's the Super Bowl need their head examined IMHO.

jrt30004 · Oct 9, 2012

ronscuba said:
How many leagues are in your area ? Are there separate beginner and intermediate leagues ?

off the top of my head we have apa / apa masters, bca, tap, acs (which i believe is simillar too or the same as bca) and just started upa and napa divisions. the apa has at least one division playing every night from sunday to thursday in one or more places, and the bca has about four or five divisions playing in different rooms on a few different nights. the upa has three divisions either playing monday or thursday and i am not sure about tap or napa. not all of the those leagues play on good gear but we have at least 4 or 5 rooms that run leagues that have 8 or 9 foot tables that are at least playable and taken care of fairly well.

jrt30004 · Oct 9, 2012

nobcitypool said:
Seems to me if he plays in professional events, finishes in the money and accepts that money, he is technically a professional. That's certainly the way it is in golf (If I remember correctly, there is a very low limit of dollar value you can accept in prizes for winning an amateur golf tournament, go above it and you're considered a pro). By NCAA rules, an athlete is pretty much prohibited from taking money for any reason related to their being a college athlete or they lose their eligibility.

With that said, I wish the guy was in our APA league. I'd love to get the chance to play a guy of that caliber once or twice each session. I'm not good enough to think about seriously challenging the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. best players in the state therefore, I'm not losing anything to this guy anyway in the big tournaments. And if I somehow got to be in the top 4 to where it might be an issue, I'd say bring him on! I'm not confused about what I want out of pool nor do I have visions of grandeur. If I want to go to Vegas, I can afford my own air fare and hotel room, I don't need to rely on APA to pay for it. These folks that treat an APA match like it's the Super Bowl need their head examined IMHO.

that was the crux of my conversation. but i see his point that if you have a 40+ hour a week job, that is your profession. at best you're a part time player. the real issue is that there is no standard definition of "pro" in the us. most tournaments are listed as "open". which means amateurs and pros alike are playing. so if you cash it doesn't necessarily mean you're a pro, you just played well that day. it's a shit system but it's what we have.
i've had fun playing guys like jeff. i had to play him a 5-3 race in 8 ball once. i won the lag, broke and ran to the 8. left myself a long straight shot. hit it soft and let it fly and the 8 goes in, only the cue never stopped. it just kept rolling and softly dropped in the pocket. loss for me. next time i got to the table i was down 4-0. he ran a 3 pack. but he broke dry on his hill game. again i get up and run to the 8. it was tied up in his balls with no good break out, but a good chance for a bank. i set up perfectly for the bank and miss it by less that a 1/8 of an inch. he runs out. that's it. 2 mistakes and i lost 5-0 in 2 trys at the table. even in a loss i love that match. i played well. just not well enough.

ronscuba · Oct 9, 2012

jrt30004 said:
off the top of my head we have apa / apa masters, bca, tap, acs (which i believe is simillar too or the same as bca) and just started upa and napa divisions. the apa has at least one division playing every night from sunday to thursday in one or more places, and the bca has about four or five divisions playing in different rooms on a few different nights. the upa has three divisions either playing monday or thursday and i am not sure about tap or napa. not all of the those leagues play on good gear but we have at least 4 or 5 rooms that run leagues that have 8 or 9 foot tables that are at least playable and taken care of fairly well.

Sounds like a decent amount. Besides apa masters, are any of the other leagues intended for better players ?

DogsPlayingPool · Oct 9, 2012

bazkook said:
He averages only 0.5 innings per game in 8 ball lifetime and has been know to regularly run sets.

Maybe it's an APA thing and I'm not that familiar, but can someone explain how a player can average a 1/2 inning per game? If you break and run a rack does that count for less than an inning or something?

Thanks.

Potential pro caliber players in APA league

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