TOI what is it, and what can it teach us about accuracy?

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Many of you will be familiar with TOI, but to those who are not, a little explanation will be necessary. So basically, what it entails is to cue shots with a little bit of inside spin, quite firmly, and aim to the thick part of the pocket. Because of deflection, the cueball will be thrown to the side a bit and make the ball in the center, if you hit where you aim. If you hit the center instead, you'll still pocket the ball and you will also pocket the ball if you hit a little bit more inside than intended.

This may seem unnecessarily complicated. Why not play center ball, aim for center pocket and just take advantage of the margin of error? Well TOI has some advantages. One of the most important ones, is that the cueball behaves a bit more consistently. Putting outside on the cueball by accident seems to make it run away more, while center or inside floats the ball in a more controlled fashion (to me). The method more or less guarantees that the ball will never have outside on it (if your cueing is good).

Another great advantage is that you are using spin to cut the ball more. In my experience, the closer to straight in a shot is, the easier it is to aim. On some shots you are dealing with optical illusions as well. Certain narrow angles into the side seems to draw the ball into the point, and it's difficult to get a feel of where the pocket opening is. I sometimes deal with that by aiming to brush the point and then put inside on, to make sure I miss it. The margin of error on some of these shots is almost non-existant, but you take advantage of aiming at a place you can see and know you can hit, and then use the spin to avoid it. I use outside this way too, sometimes, but then of course the effect is in reverse.

There are drawbacks to this, the most important is: you cant really shoot slowly. You need to put some pace on the ball for the system to work. Any kind of elevation will also complicate things. It's a method for normal cueing and potting.

Most people will put way too much side on, and this is the point of this whole post, the amount of side needed is ridiculously small. Indirectly this will show you how hard it is to hit a pure center ball! Most people neglect their cueball, by not striking it with the accuracy needed. They get inconsistent potting and bad cueball control. Look at the illustrations bottom tip: This is how little side is needed on a lot of shots, some require even less! The bottom one, not the two above. So when people whine about this being too difficult, they don't realize that cueing is ALL READY this difficult, they just have no clear idea on how to work with the physics, instead of against it. They try to hit the center, which is much like trying to hit a razors edge with the edge of another razor, and then they have no idea why they miss, or lose the cueball, because they're sometimes left and sometimes right and have no clear explanation why it happens. "I must have aimed the shot wrong". No your aim on the object ball was correct, you just didn't hit the cueball where you intended.

Do I hit TOI on every shot? No, not even close. Combinations, elevated shots, slow rollers, jumpshots, shots dead straight in..typicall I don't use it on these. But I do use it a lot, especially on power shots along the rail on tough tables. It gives the confidence to slam these in, knowing that you won't brush the rail at all. Tight position shots, tricky shots into blind pockets, shots I for some reason don't feel confident about because of tight pockets or other factors. All those shots I like to use TOI on, when that gives me decent position (which is a lot of the time). Of course the position benefits are significant on all sorts of shots, even in snooker and chineese 8 ball with different pocket designs. It doesn't really limit position plays as much as you might think, you get all the standard vertical center options, with the added advantage of accuracy and a slower moving cueball. In general I try not to cinch balls, but TOI is a lot different than hitting every shot with low outside or similar. In reality it's almost identical to center ball striking. And if you need a lot of inside, or outside, you will learn to control these better than ever before, because you are more aware of the fine nuances (IMO).
 

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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey 99.

Nice post. Reminds me of the old CJ threads which I followed.

I use TOI, not all the time. I use it to cancel OB induced spin (when needed) onto the CB and when I don't want the CB to get away from me.

When CJ said you only need to use a TOUCH of TOI he wasn't kidding.

Using a TOI is better than trying to hit a center pin point on the CB for me.

John :)
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Many of you will be familiar with TOI, but to those who are not, a little explanation will be necessary. So basically, what it entails is to cue shots with a little bit of inside spin, quite firmly, and aim to the thick part of the pocket. Because of deflection, the cueball will be thrown to the side a bit and make the ball in the center, if you hit where you aim. If you hit the center instead, you'll still pocket the ball and you will also pocket the ball if you hit a little bit more inside than intended.

This may seem unnecessarily complicated. Why not play center ball, aim for center pocket and just take advantage of the margin of error? Well TOI has some advantages. One of the most important ones, is that the cueball behaves a bit more consistently. Putting outside on the cueball by accident seems to make it run away more, while center or inside floats the ball in a more controlled fashion (to me). The method more or less guarantees that the ball will never have outside on it (if your cueing is good).

Another great advantage is that you are using spin to cut the ball more. In my experience, the closer to straight in a shot is, the easier it is to aim. On some shots you are dealing with optical illusions as well. Certain narrow angles into the side seems to draw the ball into the point, and it's difficult to get a feel of where the pocket opening is. I sometimes deal with that by aiming to brush the point and then put inside on, to make sure I miss it. The margin of error on some of these shots is almost non-existant, but you take advantage of aiming at a place you can see and know you can hit, and then use the spin to avoid it. I use outside this way too, sometimes, but then of course the effect is in reverse.

There are drawbacks to this, the most important is: you cant really shoot slowly. You need to put some pace on the ball for the system to work. Any kind of elevation will also complicate things. It's a method for normal cueing and potting.

Most people will put way too much side on, and this is the point of this whole post, the amount of side needed is ridiculously small. Indirectly this will show you how hard it is to hit a pure center ball! Most people neglect their cueball, by not striking it with the accuracy needed. They get inconsistent potting and bad cueball control. Look at the illustrations bottom tip: This is how little side is needed on a lot of shots, some require even less! The bottom one, not the two above. So when people whine about this being too difficult, they don't realize that cueing is ALL READY this difficult, they just have no clear idea on how to work with the physics, instead of against it. They try to hit the center, which is much like trying to hit a razors edge with the edge of another razor, and then they have no idea why they miss, or lose the cueball, because they're sometimes left and sometimes right and have no clear explanation why it happens. "I must have aimed the shot wrong". No your aim on the object ball was correct, you just didn't hit the cueball where you intended.

Do I hit TOI on every shot? No, not even close. Combinations, elevated shots, slow rollers, jumpshots, shots dead straight in..typicall I don't use it on these. But I do use it a lot, especially on power shots along the rail on tough tables. It gives the confidence to slam these in, knowing that you won't brush the rail at all. Tight position shots, tricky shots into blind pockets, shots I for some reason don't feel confident about because of tight pockets or other factors. All those shots I like to use TOI on, when that gives me decent position (which is a lot of the time). Of course the position benefits are significant on all sorts of shots, even in snooker and chineese 8 ball with different pocket designs. It doesn't really limit position plays as much as you might think, you get all the standard vertical center options, with the added advantage of accuracy and a slower moving cueball. In general I try not to cinch balls, but TOI is a lot different than hitting every shot with low outside or similar. In reality it's almost identical to center ball striking. And if you need a lot of inside, or outside, you will learn to control these better than ever before, because you are more aware of the fine nuances (IMO).
Sir, that was very well put. TOI is a great wrench to have in your pool tool-box.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Never understood all the falderal about TOI.

I mean, there's a TOI, a TOO, a TOH, a TOL, a WFLOI (a Whole Frappin' Lot of Inside), a WFLOO (a Whole Frappin' Lot of Outside), and so on and so forth. There are uses along with comensurate advantages and disadvantages to all kinds of spins and to be a complete player you need to be familiar with them all.

Lou Figueroa
 

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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Never understood all the falderal about TOI.

I mean, there's a TOI, a TOO, a TOH, a TOL, a WFLOI (a Whole Frappin' Lot of Inside), a WFLOO (a Whole Frappin' Lot of Outside), and so on and so forth. There are uses along with comensurate advantages and disadvantages to all kinds of spins and to be a complete player you need to be familiar with them all.

Lou Figueroa

lou
dont have a heart attack please
but i agree with you 100%
:)
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Never understood all the falderal about TOI.

I mean, there's a TOI, a TOO, a TOH, a TOL, a WFLOI (a Whole Frappin' Lot of Inside), a WFLOO (a Whole Frappin' Lot of Outside), and so on and so forth. There are uses along with comensurate advantages and disadvantages to all kinds of spins and to be a complete player you need to be familiar with them all.

Lou Figueroa

I'm not expecting to win you over on this or anything else. Also, never did I say you should use only TOI. I am a big advocate of using much spin, myself, where it is needed.

Tons of things have been said of TOI over the years, CJ's covered it pretty well. The reason I brought it up again, is that I believe a lot of players have no idea how accurately you need to strike the cueball, for it to go DEAD straight. I see lots of players that I'd bet hit the true center of the ball maybe once in 10 tries, and that's being generous. These people do pocket balls, some are considered solid players and play decent position, but that's where the good things end. Their pocketing is inaccurate and inconsistent compared to the best, and their cueball comes up short and long and they have no idea why. I see the way they are cueing up to the cueball, and to me it's pretty clear they're not paying attention to it. I know, I was guilty of the same things myself. I'm not a pro like CJ, but even someone as untalented as I am can improve with the right outlook and practise.

TOI is a pool philosophy, a way of looking at the game through different eyes. I know that sounds like a tired cliche which CJ kind of ran into the ground, but it's true never the less. Yes, you may be attacking only a part of the game, but by doing that, you are changing and understanding other parts of your game. Once you start experimenting with cueing only a hair inside, and realize how even the tinyest off center hit can change the outcome of the shot, it can't help but change your outlook on the game. For instance I changed my bridge, started curling my fingers under more to keep my bridge even more solid (just an example). The illustration in my OP is actually more inside than I use on many shots, but it's tough to even show in illustrations how little is needed to change a shot outcome significantly. I kind of wished I'd gone all the way with the illustration, but I couldn't make it visible on the screen and I kind of chickened out. You can see it easily in person, but you have to look for it with intent and knowledge to be aware of it. When our instincts have failed to get our games to the level we desire, as it has for many of us, it's time to evaluate and try something new.

Just IMO, as always.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm not expecting to win you over on this or anything else. Also, never did I say you should use only TOI. I am a big advocate of using much spin, myself, where it is needed.

Tons of things have been said of TOI over the years, CJ's covered it pretty well. The reason I brought it up again, is that I believe a lot of players have no idea how accurately you need to strike the cueball, for it to go DEAD straight. I see lots of players that I'd bet hit the true center of the ball maybe once in 10 tries, and that's being generous. These people do pocket balls, some are considered solid players and play decent position, but that's where the good things end. Their pocketing is inaccurate and inconsistent compared to the best, and their cueball comes up short and long and they have no idea why. I see the way they are cueing up to the cueball, and to me it's pretty clear they're not paying attention to it. I know, I was guilty of the same things myself. I'm not a pro like CJ, but even someone as untalented as I am can improve with the right outlook and practise.

TOI is a pool philosophy, a way of looking at the game through different eyes. I know that sounds like a tired cliche which CJ kind of ran into the ground, but it's true never the less. Yes, you may be attacking only a part of the game, but by doing that, you are changing and understanding other parts of your game. Once you start experimenting with cueing only a hair inside, and realize how even the tinyest off center hit can change the outcome of the shot, it can't help but change your outlook on the game. For instance I changed my bridge, started curling my fingers under more to keep my bridge even more solid (just an example). The illustration in my OP is actually more inside than I use on many shots, but it's tough to even show in illustrations how little is needed to change a shot outcome significantly. I kind of wished I'd gone all the way with the illustration, but I couldn't make it visible on the screen and I kind of chickened out. You can see it easily in person, but you have to look for it with intent and knowledge to be aware of it. When our instincts have failed to get our games to the level we desire, as it has for many of us, it's time to evaluate and try something new.

Just IMO, as always.
Straightpool_99;
although i agreed with lou regarding you need to know the whole cue ball
i also agree with your post above
understanding and being able to execute an alternative way to get around the table
gives you another arrow in your quiver
the more arrows you can master makes you more versatile
that is a good thing imho.....:)
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not expecting to win you over on this or anything else. Also, never did I say you should use only TOI. I am a big advocate of using much spin, myself, where it is needed.

Tons of things have been said of TOI over the years, CJ's covered it pretty well. The reason I brought it up again, is that I believe a lot of players have no idea how accurately you need to strike the cueball, for it to go DEAD straight. I see lots of players that I'd bet hit the true center of the ball maybe once in 10 tries, and that's being generous. These people do pocket balls, some are considered solid players and play decent position, but that's where the good things end. Their pocketing is inaccurate and inconsistent compared to the best, and their cueball comes up short and long and they have no idea why. I see the way they are cueing up to the cueball, and to me it's pretty clear they're not paying attention to it. I know, I was guilty of the same things myself. I'm not a pro like CJ, but even someone as untalented as I am can improve with the right outlook and practise.

TOI is a pool philosophy, a way of looking at the game through different eyes. I know that sounds like a tired cliche which CJ kind of ran into the ground, but it's true never the less. Yes, you may be attacking only a part of the game, but by doing that, you are changing and understanding other parts of your game. Once you start experimenting with cueing only a hair inside, and realize how even the tinyest off center hit can change the outcome of the shot, it can't help but change your outlook on the game. For instance I changed my bridge, started curling my fingers under more to keep my bridge even more solid (just an example). The illustration in my OP is actually more inside than I use on many shots, but it's tough to even show in illustrations how little is needed to change a shot outcome significantly. I kind of wished I'd gone all the way with the illustration, but I couldn't make it visible on the screen and I kind of chickened out. You can see it easily in person, but you have to look for it with intent and knowledge to be aware of it. When our instincts have failed to get our games to the level we desire, as it has for many of us, it's time to evaluate and try something new.

Just IMO, as always.


I think players can learn from all kinds of things.

Whether it's how important precise CB striking is, or how important it is to know whether you're on one side of the CB or the other, or how itsy bitsy variations on where and how you strike the CB can dramatically change the results you see on the table. Same with aiming systems, when they get a player focused in on a consistent routine and they become more aware of the angles involved. It's nothing inherently marvelous about the "system" other than the fact that it induces awareness and consistency.

Things only go off the rails when players lose sight of what's actually going on.

Lou Figueroa
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Never understood all the falderal about TOI.
Like 99 says, it does focus the player on more precise CB contact, which can't be bad. But that's a lesson that doesn't need a "system" - and nothing about a small amount of inside sets it apart from or makes it preferable to other spin choices, "floating cue ball" notwithstanding. It has its uses like all of 'em.

But I don't think anybody objected much to a little overselling of the idea that a little inside spin can be useful. As I recall the real controversy was about the main (and least credible) selling point of the "system": that aiming with a little intentional tip offset limited the effect of stroke error, actually increasing accuracy despite the added complication of squirt.

Imaginative at least.

pj
chgo
 

sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
TOI is an interesting system. Have you purchased the material? I never did I just tried to piece it together from youtube videos and posts on this site.

My understanding of it is not the same as yours, I'm perfectly willing to accept that my understanding is incorrect but it led me down an interesting aiming path so it's worth mentioning.

Instead of just aiming a little thick and adding a touch of inside, as you describe, you line up center to center and parallel shift inside so that the deflection of the CB makes the shot.

Then for shots that are roughly 1/2 ball hits you aim at 1/4 and parallel shift inside.

So you are not actually aiming at or using center cb much.

What's interesting about it is that it creates a layer of reference on top of aiming so that you can aim without aiming. Kind of like CTE or aiming at the shadows on the OB.

If you practice it regularly it gives you an excellent idea of the amount of deflection that your cue will cause on a large variety of shots. You also start to see a 'mirroring' effect of the deflection and the angle to the pocket which guides the amount of parallel shift to do.

Very interesting.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
TOI is an interesting system. Have you purchased the material? I never did I just tried to piece it together from youtube videos and posts on this site.

My understanding of it is not the same as yours, I'm perfectly willing to accept that my understanding is incorrect but it led me down an interesting aiming path so it's worth mentioning.

Instead of just aiming a little thick and adding a touch of inside, as you describe, you line up center to center and parallel shift inside so that the deflection of the CB makes the shot.

Then for shots that are roughly 1/2 ball hits you aim at 1/4 and parallel shift inside.

So you are not actually aiming at or using center cb much.

What's interesting about it is that it creates a layer of reference on top of aiming so that you can aim without aiming. Kind of like CTE or aiming at the shadows on the OB.

If you practice it regularly it gives you an excellent idea of the amount of deflection that your cue will cause on a large variety of shots. You also start to see a 'mirroring' effect of the deflection and the angle to the pocket which guides the amount of parallel shift to do.

Very interesting.

In my understanding there are two versions of TOI, then one I mentioned and something similar to what you are talking about. There are also other systems that use spin the same way. The problem with "your way" is that the ball will have a lot of inside on it on several shots. You don't really get the accuracy benefit either. Sure, I can make most of my shots aiming center to center or center to 1/2 and use inside to deflect the ball out, but IMO it's not easier, in fact it's way harder.

With the amounts of side needed you get a lot of swerve to contend with, AND the cueball can actually run away instead of slowing down, depending on wether inside is "running" english for that angle or not. So basically it becomes either like those people who use low outside on every shot, and pretty much use only one speed...Or it becomes a nightmare to figure out the exact tip position/speed combo, not to mention rail speed effects...I like inside more than maybe most people, but I'm not shooting all my shots with huge amounts of inside on them!

On a table length shot you need extremely good spin and speed control to not only make the shot, but have the proper control of the cueball with a system like that.

On the other hand, when using only a hair of inside, the swerve doesn't really come into the picture much, and the inside on the ball will be cancelled out after the cueball strikes the object ball on cuts(as you know, the collision puts outside on the ball). Yes, the inside does deflect the ball out, but it doesn't really stay on the ball, so the rail angles stay at least close to the center ball standard. And there is the benefit to using the whole pocket.

The way you talk about is a good learning tool for deflection and swerve, but in my opinion it's not as useful for playing a well rounded game. I tried doing something similar in order to beat the 10 ball ghost using only TOI some years ago (on camera, to show the method). I failed because of the previously mentioned problems. I kept losing my cueball and thought my fundamentals were no good. In reality, the method was no good, they way I was using it. For instance, I'd have a shot where I needed to go forward off one rail, but inside would be running english. To make the ball I would need maybe 1/2-1/4 tip inside. So my options would be to either run around (because I couldn't hold position), or check using center/draw and let the spin carry me forward. Those are both worse options than just using follow with just a hair of inside..That is why I failed back then. So I figured out later, how to use TOI to play a normal, well rounded game with a "hidden" edge, and the 10 ball ghost is no longer necessarily safe, TOI or no TOI.
 
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HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you play TOI, you'll learn to "tame" the cue ball, leading to less shots where the cue ball "gets away from you."
 

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you play TOI, you'll learn to "tame" the cue ball, leading to less shots where the cue ball "gets away from you."
You're right...it's nice to see that cueball kinda' "float" over into position.
There are some tables where the pockets (especially if they're shimmed up under 4 1/2) have a tendency to "cough" or "rattle" balls if they enter the pocket from an inside hit on the cueball. I don't know why this occurs, but it does...of course it's usually on the cheaper kind of equipment.
Soooo, it pays to check that out in warming up and put outside on the cue ball when heading into those 'contrary' corner pockets during the contest.
On washtub pockets it isn't that big of a deal.
I've even seen this happen on some of the big Diamonds. Top players like Shaw, The Lion, Big Tony,etc. pick up on that right away and adjust accordingly in a few seconds.
Bums like me have to find it out in the warmup and then remember to execute that way during the combat.
CJ and the "touch of inside on every shot" doesn't exactly cover that aspect.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...pockets (especially if they're shimmed up under 4 1/2) have a tendency to "cough" or "rattle" balls if they enter the pocket from an inside hit on the cueball...

...put outside on the cue ball when heading into those 'contrary' corner pockets.
I think you may have this backwards. Most times "get-in" English would be inside spin - such as when cutting a ball down a rail.

pj <- could be semantics
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...it's nice to see that cueball kinda' "float" over into position.
Yes, that's something any experienced player knows how to accomplish when needed. A touch of inside is just another point on the spin spectrum like all the others, and paying close attention to where you're hitting the CB is just another fundamental skill like all the others - important (like all the others), but it doesn't rise to the level of a "playing/aiming system".

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Okay, let's put it this way.
Apply whatever spin on the cueball that will give favorable spin to the object ball toward the contrary pocket.
A Touch of Inside system on every shot will not give high percentage pocket entry on some tables that are very shimmed up in the pockets.
Some of those contrary pockets require running spin on the object ball to enter favorably. If the object ball has reverse spin on it in those kind of pockets, it has a tendency to cough or rattle.
Isn't "get-in" English when the OB has spin that "twists" it toward the pocket when rebounding off the pocket facing? I don't see how the opposite could ever help.

pj
chgo
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
TOI's spin on the object ball has zero affect in pocketing percentage imo.
It is after all only A TOUCH of inside .

TOI works on frozen to the rail balls b/c of the cueball's squirt causes you to hit the ob a little thinner than you visualize. Even Mosconi used it according to his late sparring partner Wayne Norcross.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
TOI's spin on the object ball has zero affect in pocketing percentage imo.
It is after all only A TOUCH of inside .

TOI works on frozen to the rail balls b/c of the cueball's squirt causes you to hit the ob a little thinner than you visualize. Even Mosconi used it according to his late sparring partner Wayne Norcross.
Agree about TOI.

I aim rail-frozen balls the same way I aim the same cut angle away from the rail - no thinning needed. I think inside spin helps rail shots by giving them a “second chance” with the rail-first option.

pj
chgo
 
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