Big Billiard Retailers

Q

QuickEdward

New member
Silver Member
I'm curious if anyone else here is as resentful towards the big billiard retailers as I am. You know the places I'm speaking of - one chain sells more hot tubs than tables and the other specializes in Oriental rugs.

First of all, their installers (I won't call them table mechanics) suck. In just the past year I've seen the following on tables they installed:

  • Missing railbolts.
  • Slate seamed with tape.
  • A table with one leg unattached - it was simply sitting under the corner of the table. It had been like this for a year in a home with small children. The table owner had no idea.
  • Legs shimmed with corrugated cardboard.
  • Graffiti written on the slate in black sharpie - inappropriate comments about the table owners attractive wife.
  • Assorted stripped bolts and slate screws, crossthreaded bolts, they NEVER use bondo or beeswax - always rockhard putty.

I attribute this to the fact that they rarely pay any of their people a fair wage for their work - so they (and ultimately their customers) get what they pay for. Substandard pay = substandard work.

And another side-effect of their substandard pay is that they end up flooding the market with rogue wannabe table mechanics. Once one of their guys sets up a few dozen tables and thinks they know what they're doing they spend their last paycheck at Harbor Freight and bang! - they're in business. And inevitably they run into a GC or another table they're unfamiliar with and butcher it. I'm a very good, but not great table mechanic. One of my greatest skills as a mechanic is to know when I should pass a difficult job on to someone with more knowledge and/or experience than I. These guys have no concept of that.

But my biggest problem with these large retailers is their complete lack of ethics or integrity. At least once a month I'll have a customer tell me that they called one of these places to get a quote on moving a table. Invariably they will tell the customer that existing cloth can't be reused and that they will have to have new cloth. And of course they're charging 200 bucks for the cloth and a sizable labor up charge to install it. Once, after being quoted 800 dollars for a simple move job, my customer told this retailer that I had quoted her only 350. They then actually told my customer that I was a "scam artist".

Sorry for ranting.

These are simply my experiences with these chains in my market. If any of you work for these chains, sorry if I offended you - hopefully the stores in your markets are better.
 
A-1 billiards

A-1 billiards

FELT WRIGHT
Silver Member
Welcome!

QuickEdward said:
I'm curious if anyone else here is as resentful towards the big billiard retailers as I am. You know the places I'm speaking of - one chain sells more hot tubs than tables and the other specializes in Oriental rugs.

First of all, their installers (I won't call them table mechanics) suck. In just the past year I've seen the following on tables they installed:

  • Missing railbolts.
  • Slate seamed with tape.
  • A table with one leg unattached - it was simply sitting under the corner of the table. It had been like this for a year in a home with small children. The table owner had no idea.
  • Legs shimmed with corrugated cardboard.
  • Graffiti written on the slate in black sharpie - inappropriate comments about the table owners attractive wife.
  • Assorted stripped bolts and slate screws, crossthreaded bolts, they NEVER use bondo or beeswax - always rockhard putty.

I attribute this to the fact that they rarely pay any of their people a fair wage for their work - so they (and ultimately their customers) get what they pay for. Substandard pay = substandard work.

And another side-effect of their substandard pay is that they end up flooding the market with rogue wannabe table mechanics. Once one of their guys sets up a few dozen tables and thinks they know what they're doing they spend their last paycheck at Harbor Freight and bang! - they're in business. And inevitably they run into a GC or another table they're unfamiliar with and butcher it. I'm a very good, but not great table mechanic. One of my greatest skills as a mechanic is to know when I should pass a difficult job on to someone with more knowledge and/or experience than I. These guys have no concept of that.

But my biggest problem with these large retailers is their complete lack of ethics or integrity. At least once a month I'll have a customer tell me that they called one of these places to get a quote on moving a table. Invariably they will tell the customer that existing cloth can't be reused and that they will have to have new cloth. And of course they're charging 200 bucks for the cloth and a sizable labor up charge to install it. Once, after being quoted 800 dollars for a simple move job, my customer told this retailer that I had quoted her only 350. They then actually told my customer that I was a "scam artist".

Sorry for ranting.

These are simply my experiences with these chains in my market. If any of you work for these chains, sorry if I offended you - hopefully the stores in your markets are better.
Click to expand...

Frist..welcome to the forum...The problems you described are not unique to just the "big billiard retailers" I've seen and followed the same hack work from small Mom and Pop operations. Unfortunately we work in an industry that has no regulatory or governing body to certify a mechanic or installers ability's. As a result the people working at this trade are not recognized as professional tradesman and therefore not properly compensated. This leads to sort of problems and issues you described above.

One day, hopefully soon, their will be a nationally recognized training and certification program for mechanics / installers to gain the necessary skills to change this. Then and only then will the substandard work and pay issues begin to be resolved.

To your point of the lack of business ethics by big retailers, the informed consumer is the best antidote. The average customer just doesn't know the differences until it's to late and they're already screwed. Part of the certification program for mechanics would include a code of conduct and ethics to insure the customer was getting what they paid for...

Without standards and practices to define our profession most customers will not demand it and retailers will not pay for it.

Jay
 
Last edited:
ChrisShanklin

ChrisShanklin

Banned
A-1 billiards said:
Frist..welcome to the forum...The problems you described are not unique to just the "big billiard retailers" I've seen and followed the same hack work from small Mom and Pop operations. Unfortunately we work in an industry that has no regulatory or governing body to certify a mechanic or installers ability's. As a result the people working at this trade are not recognized as professional tradesman and therefore not properly compensated. This leads to sort of problems and issues you described above.

One day, hopefully soon, their will be a nationally recognized training and certification program for mechanics / installers to gain the necessary skills to change this. Then and only then will the substandard work and pay issues begin to be resolved.

To your point of the lack of business ethics by big retailers, the informed consumer is the best antidote. The average customer just doesn't know the differences until it's to late and they're already screwed. Part of the certification program for mechanics would include a code of conduct and ethics to insure the customer was getting what they paid for...

Without standards and practices to define our profession most customers will not demand it and retailers will not pay for it.

Jay
Click to expand...

So we send everyone through a widely accepted training program, pay for it then my employees want more money. Meanwhile I have to compete with people who don't have nearly as much overhead as me, who have the same "certification". It's hard to pay employees as much as you like when you have people doing moves for a ridiculously low price! I have to make money for my business, my employees and at the end of the day something for myself.

I agree about the hot tub, patio furniture, oriental rug dealers, I stick to just pool tables.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
ChrisShanklin said:
So we send everyone through a widely accepted training program, pay for it then my employees want more money. Meanwhile I have to compete with people who don't have nearly as much overhead as me, who have the same "certification". It's hard to pay employees as much as you like when you have people doing moves for a ridiculously low price! I have to make money for my business, my employees and at the end of the day something for myself.

I agree about the hot tub, patio furniture, oriental rug dealers, I stick to just pool tables.
Click to expand...
Chris, you'd be surprised what Accredited work can do for you, and your reputation when it comes to getting you jobs. I agree with A1 100%, and it's what I've been saying for years. This is why I'm working so hard at trying to show everyone there is a better way of doing this kind of work. Simonis, Diamond, home owners, bar and room owners, and just about every other major supplier to this industry would support a "certified" mechanic's association, union, brotherhood...or what ever else we'd call our group, I guarantee that!!! But, no one, and I mean NO ONE can straighten out this industry...except us!!!! and we have to all come together as an industry to complete that!!!

When we finally get our industry together to the point that either a mechanic is IN, or they're OUT, then you'll see a change in this industry, and see the rewards for that change, and I'm taking the steps to create that change...but I can't do it by myself, I need all the mechanics that care to support me as well;)

Glen
 
A-1 billiards

A-1 billiards

FELT WRIGHT
Silver Member
ChrisShanklin said:
So we send everyone through a widely accepted training program, pay for it then my employees want more money. Meanwhile I have to compete with people who don't have nearly as much overhead as me, who have the same "certification". It's hard to pay employees as much as you like when you have people doing moves for a ridiculously low price! I have to make money for my business, my employees and at the end of the day something for myself.

I agree about the hot tub, patio furniture, oriental rug dealers, I stick to just pool tables.
Click to expand...

Chris,

The original post was implying that the company's doing the worst work were often charging the most money. The value I see in certification is two fold, one to give the mechanics the base line working skills to do the job correctly and professionally. Secondarily the professional trade ethics to warrant that certification. As I see it this would only add value to your employees and your company.

If we are competing on a level playing field, meaning both our company's are doing work to the highest standard and you get the job because of a lower price I can live with that. What I find intolerable is the company or individuals doing substandard work getting work at ANY PRICE. Without a way to distinguish us from them we all suffer.

A critical part of this nationally recognized certification program would be consumer awareness. I think the support of the mechanics is just a first step, the manufacturers, suppliers, retailers and distributors would all benefit if we could raise the standard of work being preformed. In the end, the customer would be more likely to purchase goods and services from us.

I know its challenging to meet overhead and try to make a profit these days, but improving the skill set of your employees is always a worthwhile investment IMO.

As I stated in my post above, these are changes I hope to see. I believe the billiard mechanics industry needs to be recognized as a legitimate trade and standards of competence are an important first step in that goal.

Jay
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
A-1 billiards said:
Chris,

The original post was implying that the company's doing the worst work were often charging the most money. The value I see in certification is two fold, one to give the mechanics the base line working skills to do the job correctly and professionally. Secondarily the professional trade ethics to warrant that certification. As I see it this would only add value to your employees and your company.

If we are competing on a level playing field, meaning both our company's are doing work to the highest standard and you get the job because of a lower price I can live with that. What I find intolerable is the company or individuals doing substandard work getting work at ANY PRICE. Without a way to distinguish us from them we all suffer.

A critical part of this nationally recognized certification program would be consumer awareness. I think the support of the mechanics is just a first step, the manufacturers, suppliers, retailers and distributors would all benefit if we could raise the standard of work being preformed. In the end, the customer would be more likely to purchase goods and services from us.

I know its challenging to meet overhead and try to make a profit these days, but improving the skill set of your employees is always a worthwhile investment IMO.

As I stated in my post above, these are changes I hope to see. I believe the billiard mechanics industry needs to be recognized as a legitimate trade and standards of competence are an important first step in that goal.

Jay
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more;)
 
Cuephoric

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
How much is that Hacksaw in the window.......?

realkingcobra said:
Chris, you'd be surprised what Accredited work can do for you, and your reputation when it comes to getting you jobs. I agree with A1 100%, and it's what I've been saying for years. This is why I'm working so hard at trying to show everyone there is a better way of doing this kind of work. Simonis, Diamond, home owners, bar and room owners, and just about every other major supplier to this industry would support a "certified" mechanic's association, union, brotherhood...or what ever else we'd call our group, I guarantee that!!! But, no one, and I mean NO ONE can straighten out this industry...except us!!!! and we have to all come together as an industry to complete that!!!

When we finally get our industry together to the point that either a mechanic is IN, or they're OUT, then you'll see a change in this industry, and see the rewards for that change, and I'm taking the steps to create that change...but I can't do it by myself, I need all the mechanics that care to support me as well;)

Glen
Click to expand...

You know the Westcoast, alot The Midwest, and soon to be growing area of other zones/states are behind you with it.
But there are only so many members on AZ that that can identify and help with the problem.
There are more hacks out there doing damage than there are AZ Members, and over coming their numbers, prices, and path of destruction, will be hard to overcome just because there are so many people that DON'T know the difference until they've been shown firsthand.
Short term, it's a crap shoot, long term- as more and more people get on the same page, more and more people will only want things done that way, so the hacks will hopefully be driven into another line of work, or get onboard to learn the difference.
I've emailed and called people in different areas of the south, that advertise themselves as "Certified Master Billiards Mechanics" that get completely out of hand when you ask them little things about their work.
I've had people send me emails with threats if I make an attempt to come into their area and do ANY tables.lol
So of course, you know me and my obstinance........
But seriously, if you can't even ask someone a simple question on the phone without them getting violent or just hanging up on you, then how hard can it be to just drive them out?
Customer service and courtesy are two of the services that we offer to Everyone-
Oh yeah, and the question that I asked that got them acting stupid....?
"Where did you get certified to be a Master Billiards Mechanic?"
The most common answer before the cussing comes out?
"I learned from a guy that's been doing tables for a few years and he's real good at it."
The only other question I ever ask is about rails and I usually get hung up on.
shrug.
There's your competition boys! Go get 'em!:thumbup:
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Cuephoric said:
You know the Westcoast, alot The Midwest, and soon to be growing area of other zones/states are behind you with it.
But there are only so many members on AZ that that can identify and help with the problem.
There are more hacks out there doing damage than there are AZ Members, and over coming their numbers, prices, and path of destruction, will be hard to overcome just because there are so many people that DON'T know the difference until they've been shown firsthand.
Short term, it's a crap shoot, long term- as more and more people get on the same page, more and more people will only want things done that way, so the hacks will hopefully be driven into another line of work, or get onboard to learn the difference.
I've emailed and called people in different areas of the south, that advertise themselves as "Certified Master Billiards Mechanics" that get completely out of hand when you ask them little things about their work.
I've had people send me emails with threats if I make an attempt to come into their area and do ANY tables.lol
So of course, you know me and my obstinance........
But seriously, if you can't even ask someone a simple question on the phone without them getting violent or just hanging up on you, then how hard can it be to just drive them out?
Customer service and courtesy are two of the services that we offer to Everyone-
Oh yeah, and the question that I asked that got them acting stupid....?
"Where did you get certified to be a Master Billiards Mechanic?"
The most common answer before the cussing comes out?
"I learned from a guy that's been doing tables for a few years and he's real good at it."
The only other question I ever ask is about rails and I usually get hung up on.
shrug.
There's your competition boys! Go get 'em!:thumbup:
Click to expand...
Not a big problem to over come when you've got Simonis, Diamond, 3M and the national tournaments with tables supplied by Diamond to back you up:D It's no longer a matter of "IF"...but more of a matter of "WHEN":D

Glen
 
Club Billiards

Club Billiards

Absolute Billiard Service
Silver Member
I honestly think that part of the reason those types of retailers charge so much for the service work is the fact that they don't want to do it. Sure, they'll install one of their own tables, if they sell it, but I don't think they're all that interested in doing good service. So if they quote $800 for something you'll do all day long for $350, then what's the worst that can happen. Someone actually hires them to do it?

Have you ever dealt with a customer who tried to get one of those retailers to correct an issue with one of their tables after the installation? They're not very service oriented companies, as a generalization. I actually fired a guy a couple years ago because he was a complete idiot. We were delivering an Olhausen Champ Pro one day with Simonis on it. Got to the point where it was time to start breaking down boxes and carrying stuff out. He asks the guy that just bought the table if he wanted to play for $5 or something. Now the guy was obliterated by the time we showed up to install his table, but still not right in my opinion. Ok, so there's strike 1. Strike 2 came when I told him we didn't have time for that, we had to get to another install. He ignored me and racked them up. Strike 3 was when he hooked himself mid-rack and jumped a ball on the new Simonis!!! Now keep in mind, this isn't a pool player I'm working with, this is some idiot kid playing pool.

Anyway, back to the point...I ran in to him a couple months later...he had moved on to the hot tub variety of pool table retailer. I asked him how busy they were and if they were doing much service work. He actually told me, "Yeah, we really try to avoid moving tables if we can. That's a lot more work than we like to do." Nice.

Yeah, not a fan of those stores.
 
ChrisShanklin

ChrisShanklin

Banned
A-1 billiards said:
Chris,

The original post was implying that the company's doing the worst work were often charging the most money. The value I see in certification is two fold, one to give the mechanics the base line working skills to do the job correctly and professionally. Secondarily the professional trade ethics to warrant that certification. As I see it this would only add value to your employees and your company.

If we are competing on a level playing field, meaning both our company's are doing work to the highest standard and you get the job because of a lower price I can live with that. What I find intolerable is the company or individuals doing substandard work getting work at ANY PRICE. Without a way to distinguish us from them we all suffer.

A critical part of this nationally recognized certification program would be consumer awareness. I think the support of the mechanics is just a first step, the manufacturers, suppliers, retailers and distributors would all benefit if we could raise the standard of work being preformed. In the end, the customer would be more likely to purchase goods and services from us.

I know its challenging to meet overhead and try to make a profit these days, but improving the skill set of your employees is always a worthwhile investment IMO.

As I stated in my post above, these are changes I hope to see. I believe the billiard mechanics industry needs to be recognized as a legitimate trade and standards of competence are an important first step in that goal.

Jay
Click to expand...

Jay,
I agree with you, but I think to be on the same playing field my competition should be a real business or at least operate as such, carry insurance, have to pay sales tax, etc. I can't beat prices from a dipshit doing on the side for cash only.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
ChrisShanklin said:
Jay,
I agree with you, but I think to be on the same playing field my competition should be a real business or at least operate as such, carry insurance, have to pay sales tax, etc. I can't beat prices from a dipshit doing on the side for cash only.
Click to expand...
And THAT customer CAN"T get the kind of work performed by a real "certified" mechanic from OUR industry...unless the mechanic IS from our industry and has shown to be "capable" of performing the work to the standard level of workmanship that "Our" industry guarantees from ALL "certified" mechanics! Retail stores only sell new tables ONCE and that's it for the most part. After that "One" time sale...it's up to US to take care of it from then on out for the life of the table, not the original seller...if they couldn't do the job right in the first place! In MY world, even installers working for billiards retail stores are going to have to be "Certified" as "Installers" and that still don't make them "Mechanics"...just installers that KNOW how to setup and install a table correctly the "First" time it's done!

I don't expect "retail stores" to support this plan of mine, but...I really don't care, but with enough information out here...the CUSTOMERS will!!!

Glen
 
A-1 billiards

A-1 billiards

FELT WRIGHT
Silver Member
ChrisShanklin said:
Jay,
I agree with you, but I think to be on the same playing field my competition should be a real business or at least operate as such, carry insurance, have to pay sales tax, etc. I can't beat prices from a dipshit doing on the side for cash only.
Click to expand...

Chris,

As a non business entity the "dipshit" would never qualify for membership or certification. If he became certified under your employ his certificate stays under your MASTER. Should he venture out in his own business he would have to meet definite business criteria to transfer or maintain his AUTHORIZED certification. No trunk slammers here.

Obviously any program would be designed to insure that the mechanics were, or worked for LEGITIMATE company's. Remember, teaching the trade skills are only a small part of the function of any governing board.

It's really about cleaning up the industry, bad installation work is just the tip of the iceberg.

Jay
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
A-1 billiards said:
Glen,
Every time I'm typing a response you beet me to the punch...LOL

Jay
Click to expand...
That's because I have to type fast...I think you've been watching me take a dump, as that's where I think about my ideas the best:p You really do know what's on my mind...and what's coming;)

Glen
 
youloudmouth

youloudmouth

stop yelling at me
Silver Member
Makes me wonder if the people in charge of building codes know about things like this

A table with one leg unattached - it was simply sitting under the corner of the table. It had been like this for a year in a home with small children. The table owner had no idea.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
There are so many things involved in what I'd like to see done it's way to complicated to really go into them all. But I have some inventions that will help all mechanics, as well as some products that mechanics can buy and sell to the customers. My goals are to take the proceeds from the sale of these products and turn them over to the "Union" so to speak, as a way of all of us coming together for the purpose of being able to take care of ourselves, such as medical insurance for starters. I really wish I could tell you guys what's coming...but I can't right now, but....soon;)

Glen
 
Cuephoric

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
ChrisShanklin said:
Jay,
I agree with you, but I think to be on the same playing field my competition should be a real business or at least operate as such, carry insurance, have to pay sales tax, etc. I can't beat prices from a dipshit doing on the side for cash only.
Click to expand...

We've all run into that, especially since the economy started doing a swan dive in various parts of the country.
Everyone that ever tried to do a table in the past was suddenly an expert poster on Craigslist, and guaranteeing to beat anyone's price out there.
I dealt with it for a while by posting my challenge to them all, but the end result, there are more of them moonlighting than there are businesses in the region.
I've called up guys with webpages, online ads, and Craigslist, and still ran into the same crowd.
For the most part, it takes more than advertising to get the job done, unfortunately, unless someone walks into the store looking for who will be doing their table, they don't know any better.
I'm sure there are alot of us that advertise online in one form or another, so it's kind of a challenge to beat modern technology and the inability of most people to do research on their table,or who is going to be doing the work.
Most consumers seem to be too lazy to look into anything other than with a mouse and a keyboard.
So they find the coolest sounding title, or most authentic sounding, and contact them.
There are a couple of guys in Sacramento that post 20-30 different ads a week in NorCAl, and are often competing with themselves for the business.
But they are always in motion for bottom of the barrel prices, and services to match.
Personally, I can't wait for Glen's operation to be in full swing.
Then maybe people will start wanting things done right, and have a standard to base their knowledge from.
 
Cuephoric

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
youloudmouth said:
Makes me wonder if the people in charge of building codes know about things like this

A table with one leg unattached - it was simply sitting under the corner of the table. It had been like this for a year in a home with small children. The table owner had no idea.
Click to expand...


What are they going to do to them.... revoke their contractor's license...?
I've been into place here that had tables stacked three high on the showroom floor with no nuts on the leg bolts.
Tell me how safe THAT is?
 
Q

QuickEdward

New member
Silver Member
Club Billiards said:
I honestly think that part of the reason those types of retailers charge so much for the service work is the fact that they don't want to do it. Sure, they'll install one of their own tables, if they sell it, but I don't think they're all that interested in doing good service. So if they quote $800 for something you'll do all day long for $350, then what's the worst that can happen. Someone actually hires them to do it?

Have you ever dealt with a customer who tried to get one of those retailers to correct an issue with one of their tables after the installation? They're not very service oriented companies, as a generalization. I actually fired a guy a couple years ago because he was a complete idiot. We were delivering an Olhausen Champ Pro one day with Simonis on it. Got to the point where it was time to start breaking down boxes and carrying stuff out. He asks the guy that just bought the table if he wanted to play for $5 or something. Now the guy was obliterated by the time we showed up to install his table, but still not right in my opinion. Ok, so there's strike 1. Strike 2 came when I told him we didn't have time for that, we had to get to another install. He ignored me and racked them up. Strike 3 was when he hooked himself mid-rack and jumped a ball on the new Simonis!!! Now keep in mind, this isn't a pool player I'm working with, this is some idiot kid playing pool.

Anyway, back to the point...I ran in to him a couple months later...he had moved on to the hot tub variety of pool table retailer. I asked him how busy they were and if they were doing much service work. He actually told me, "Yeah, we really try to avoid moving tables if we can. That's a lot more work than we like to do." Nice.

Yeah, not a fan of those stores.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. They don't want to do the work - which is fine by me. But their motivation for highballing these customers isn't necessarily to turn the business away. What they're really trying to do is to price people out of the used market.

As soon as the person on the phone says "Wow, that's as much money as I'm paying for the table" - they try to sell them a new table (of course a bottom-of-the-line mdf and plywood table) with installation included.
 
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