Crooked Pro Pool Strokes in Video

straightline · Jan 24, 2020

dr_dave said:
Have you seen this video:

NV J.35 – Top 10 Aim, Alignment, and STROKE DRILLS

Check it out and you will see that my stroke is usually fairly straight.

Regards,
Dave

Not challenging your stroking ability; just stating that it's normal. Some examples show a slight skew to the cue path; the one on the rail surface down the cushion line comes to mind. There is no ball impact involved but I see slight deviations in the cue vector (forgive me if this is the wrong term.) Try those same demonstrations and also the ones with a ball, at higher velocity. Now the full effect of any misalignment will manifest itself.

As to that wobble, I have the same thing going on. It's most pronounced with the loose textbook grip. I attribute it to all properties - shaft, stroke, stance, impact, etc. being mathematically off center. I'm sure you'd agree that good stroke is one thing and perfect stroke is a completely different proposition. (?)

Anyway, I'm not here to be a problem student so next person please.

jrctherake · Jan 24, 2020

I've played several killers that have or do the following:

Crooked stroke
Raise up on shots
Wiggly bridges
Eye patterns that are all over the place
Tip steer...real bad at times
Spin the cb unnecessarily
Shoot very hard at times

But, all ^^^^^^^ didn't stop them from running over me and my:

Straight stoke
Repeatable eye pattern
Staying down on shot
Not shooting to hard
No unnecessary spin

Mechanics are important but, when talking about playing at higher levels.....well, mechanics are IMO, of little importance.

In the end, it doesn't matter how you do it....not in the least. What matters is that you repeat it over and over.

Jeff

dr_dave · Jan 24, 2020

jrctherake said:
I've played several killers that have or do the following:

Crooked stroke
Raise up on shots
Wiggly bridges
Eye patterns that are all over the place
Tip steer...real bad at times
Spin the cb unnecessarily
Shoot very hard at times

But, all ^^^^^^^ didn't stop them from running over me and my:

Straight stoke
Repeatable eye pattern
Staying down on shot
Not shooting to hard
No unnecessary spin

Mechanics are important but, when talking about playing at higher levels.....well, mechanics are IMO, of little importance.

In the end, it doesn't matter how you do it....not in the least. What matters is that you repeat it over and over.

Jeff

Agreed. If you can consistently and accurately hit the CB with the cue tip in the desired position and with the cue pointing in the desired direction at the brief moment of contact, nothing else really matters.

Most people can do this easier and better with "good" mechanics, but there are certainly many exceptions.

Regards,
Dave

Snooker Theory · Jan 24, 2020

dr_dave said:
I have noticed over the years that my tip sometimes finishes to the left of the line of aim after the follow-through, especially with fast-speed shots. I once thought it was due to the forward momentum of the cue twisting my stance slightly as the cue is slowed and stopped. But now I know the actual answer. I discovered it while filming my recent YouTube video. Here's are stills from one of the shots in the video:

View attachment 539641

Notice how my cue moves to the left of the shot line and then back, all after the hit. On fast-speed shots, sometimes the tip doesn't move back. Can anybody explain why this is happening? I know why. I just wanted to see if astute viewers out there can figure it out.

I'll post my answer after you guys take a stab at it.

Thank,
Dave

I have two theories,

1st. you use a pendulum stroke, due to this, at the end of the stroke, the cue elevates and deceives perception.

2nd You use your chest as a guide similar to snooker players, due to the taper of the cue it forces the cue to the left through the follow-through.

dr_dave · Jan 24, 2020

Snooker Theory said:
dr_dave said:

I have noticed over the years that my tip sometimes finishes to the left of the line of aim after the follow-through, especially with fast-speed shots. I once thought it was due to the forward momentum of the cue twisting my stance slightly as the cue is slowed and stopped. But now I know the actual answer. I discovered it while filming my recent YouTube video. Here's are stills from one of the shots in the video:

View attachment 539641

Notice how my cue moves to the left of the shot line and then back, all after the hit. On fast-speed shots, sometimes the tip doesn't move back. Can anybody explain why this is happening? I know why. I just wanted to see if astute viewers out there can figure it out.

I'll post my answer after you guys take a stab at it.

Thank,
Dave

Click to expand...

I have two theories,

1st. you use a pendulum stroke, due to this, at the end of the stroke, the cue elevates and deceives perception.

2nd You use your chest as a guide similar to snooker players, due to the taper of the cue it forces the cue to the left through the follow-through.

Good theories. You are on the right track, but my answer is a little different. Again, let's wait to hear from others first.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

jrctherake · Jan 24, 2020

Snooker Theory said:
I have two theories,

1st. you use a pendulum stroke, due to this, at the end of the stroke, the cue elevates and deceives perception.

2nd You use your chest as a guide similar to snooker players, due to the taper of the cue it forces the cue to the left through the follow-through.

When I use a pendulum stroke and a fast stroke speed, my tip steers. When using a medium to slow stoke speed, I don't have tip steer.

If I use a piston stroke, I rarely produce a tip steer no matter what the speed. I guess it's the shoulder drop and level cue that helps prevent it.

I dunno,

Jeff

dr_dave · Jan 24, 2020

jrctherake said:
When I use a pendulum stroke and a fast stroke speed, my tip steers.

Sometimes, this is due to elbow drop (which is often associated with "chicken wing" motion to the side). I'm not sure that is the case with you, but it could be. The reason could also be the same reason why my tip steers during my follow-through in the video frame images, but nobody has identified this cause yet (which I will announce tomorrow).

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Jan 25, 2020

dr_dave said:
I have noticed over the years that my tip sometimes finishes to the left of the line of aim after the follow-through, especially with fast-speed shots. I once thought it was due to the forward momentum of the cue twisting my stance slightly as the cue is slowed and stopped. But now I know the actual answer. I discovered it while filming my recent YouTube video. Here's are stills from one of the shots in the video:

View attachment 539641

Notice how my cue moves to the left of the shot line and then back, all after the hit. On fast-speed shots, sometimes the tip doesn't move back. Can anybody explain why this is happening? I know why. I just wanted to see if astute viewers out there can figure it out.

I'll post my answer after you guys take a stab at it.

Thank,
Dave

Here's my answer:

The left side of my grip hand is hitting my chest at the end of the follow through. This causes the grip hand to bounce off slightly to the right (making the tip go left), but the hand and tip usually naturally return quickly (except with power shots, where it really bounces off and rides forward along the chest a little).

None of this is a problem since the CB is long gone, but it used to bug me seeing the tip finish off the shot line at the end of the stroke on certain shots.

Regards,
Dave

jrctherake · Jan 25, 2020

dr_dave said:
Sometimes, this is due to elbow drop (which is often associated with "chicken wing" motion to the side). I'm not sure that is the case with you, but it could be. The reason could also be the same reason why my tip steers during my follow-through in the video frame images, but nobody has identified this cause yet (which I will announce tomorrow).

Regards,
Dave

At times, tip steer is worse than what you show in the screen shot.

Jeff

dr_dave · Jan 25, 2020

jrctherake said:
At times, tip steer is worse than what you show in the screen shot.

Agreed. And I think it caused mostly by this:

dr_dave said:
Here's my answer:

The left side of my grip hand is hitting my chest at the end of the follow through. This causes the grip hand to bounce off slightly to the right (making the tip go left), but the hand and tip usually naturally return quickly (except with power shots, where it really bounces off and rides forward along the chest a little).

None of this is a problem since the CB is long gone, but it used to bug me seeing the tip finish off the shot line at the end of the stroke on certain shots.

Also, sometimes (especially when using sidespin with power) the shaft bounces off my thumb and out of my bridge hand and the tip will end up to the left of the shot line. Good examples of this are at the beginning of this video:

How to Select a Pool Cue, Cue Ball Deflection, Carbon Fiber, Revo vs. Cuetec

Again, this happens well after the CB is gone, so it doesn't affect the shot.

See the "NOTEs" in the YouTube video description for more information.

Regards,
Dave

jrctherake · Jan 25, 2020

dr_dave said:
Agreed. And I think it caused mostly by this:

Also, sometimes (especially when using sidespin with power) the shaft bounces off my thumb and out of my bridge hand and the tip will end up to the left of the shot line. Good examples of this are at the beginning of this video:

How to Select a Pool Cue, Cue Ball Deflection, Carbon Fiber, Revo vs. Cuetec

Again, this happens well after the CB is gone, so it doesn't affect the shot.

See the "NOTEs" in the YouTube video description for more information.

Regards,
Dave

I meant to say, that "my tip steer is worse than what your screen shot shows" your steer to be.

Jeff

dr_dave · Jan 25, 2020

jrctherake said:
I meant to say, that "my tip steer is worse than what your screen shot shows" your steer to be.

Jeff

Got it. If you posted a video, I'm sure the AZB community would help you identify the root causes. In my experience with students, the most common causes are elbow drop with chicken wing motion, grip tightening with wrist curl, and moving the body or bridge hand during the shot.

Catch you later,
Dave

iusedtoberich · Jan 25, 2020

I watched the video, good work. What are people still debating? I find many of the YouTube comments on pool videos are from bangers that have zero clue about anything.

dr_dave · Jan 25, 2020

iusedtoberich said:
I watched the video, good work. What are people still debating? I find many of the YouTube comments on pool videos are from bangers that have zero clue about anything.

Thanks for watching, and thanks for the feedback.

Some of the comments on Facebook are also a little of the "clueless banger" variety at times, but all interest in pool is good interest, IMO. And sometimes the "clueless bangers" still learn something in the process, and that is good too.

Catch you later,
Dave

jrctherake · Jan 25, 2020

dr_dave said:
Got it. If you posted a video, I'm sure the AZB community would help you identify the root causes. In my experience with students, the most common causes are elbow drop with chicken wing motion, grip tightening with wrist curl, and moving the body or bridge hand during the shot.

Catch you later,
Dave

My luck, I've got all of those issues.

I've not posted a vid of any kind in forever. Next time I get a chance to record from the correct angles, I'll post em. Right now, my camera is in a terrible position.

dr_dave · Jan 25, 2020

jrctherake said:
My luck, I've got all of those issues.

I've not posted a vid of any kind in forever. Next time I get a chance to record from the correct angles, I'll post em. Right now, my camera is in a terrible position.

You can use a smartphone supported on a ladder (although a video camera on a tripod is better). Regardless, good angles and shots to film are described and illustrated here:

recommended stroke video analysis procedure

Catch you later,
Dave

MitchDAZB · Jan 26, 2020

Here's a good article: "Understanding Lens Distortion in Photography (And How To Fix It)."

"The curved shape allows the lens to capture a wide view of the scene. But the curve also means the objects at the edge of the image are a different distance from the lens than those at the center. That difference means the objects at the edge of the frame aren’t enlarged as much as the objects in the center. Magnify a line at the edges and not in the center, and that line appears to curve at the edges."

dr_dave · Jan 26, 2020

MitchDAZB said:
Here's a good article: "Understanding Lens Distortion in Photography (And How To Fix It)."

"The curved shape allows the lens to capture a wide view of the scene. But the curve also means the objects at the edge of the image are a different distance from the lens than those at the center. That difference means the objects at the edge of the frame aren’t enlarged as much as the objects in the center. Magnify a line at the edges and not in the center, and that line appears to curve at the edges."

Thanks for the link. That was an interesting read. However, many of the illusions I describe in my video are not due to this stuff. Instead they are due to perspective projection effects resulting from viewing the 3D world via 2D image images.

Regards,
Dave

Hits 'em Hard · Jan 26, 2020

dr_dave said:
Check out the following new video:

NV J.36 – Crooked Pro Pool Strokes in Video

It is a follow-up to the following two recent videos that generated many comments on AZB, YouTube, and Facebook concerning the apparent crookedness of Samm's stroke during one of the shots:

NV J.33 – Top 10 Secrets of a Good Draw/Backspin/Screw-Back Shot
NV J.34 – Is this Stroke Crooked … or is it Parallax?

Check out the new video. I think it finally provides totally clear and convincing evidence to explain and demonstrate the optical illusions that can occur with video camera perspective and parallax effects related to an elevated cue or a cue that changes elevation during a shot (e.g., as with a pendulum stroke).

Enjoy,
Dave

You’re taking the focus points of a 3D imaging, losing their Z-axis relation to the camera and expecting me to believe Samm’s stroke is still straight? Her stroke is crooked for one simple reason. The cue ball should have drawn straight back to its starting point. Instead it goes off to her left, with the same bias her stroke steer has. You’ve invested a lot of time arguing your side with flawed setups. Flawed understanding of putting a 2D line on top of a 3D image. Do you need an art class to understand perspectives?

dr_dave · Jan 26, 2020

Hits 'em Hard said:
dr_dave said:

Check out the following new video:

NV J.36 – Crooked Pro Pool Strokes in Video

It is a follow-up to the following two recent videos that generated many comments on AZB, YouTube, and Facebook concerning the apparent crookedness of Samm's stroke during one of the shots:

NV J.33 – Top 10 Secrets of a Good Draw/Backspin/Screw-Back Shot
NV J.34 – Is this Stroke Crooked … or is it Parallax?

Check out the new video. I think it finally provides totally clear and convincing evidence to explain and demonstrate the optical illusions that can occur with video camera perspective and parallax effects related to an elevated cue or a cue that changes elevation during a shot (e.g., as with a pendulum stroke).

Click to expand...

You’re taking the focus points of a 3D imaging, losing their Z-axis relation to the camera and expecting me to believe Samm’s stroke is still straight?

I don't think I said Samm's stroke was straight. If I did, I was mistaken. It definitely was not straight with that particular shot. My point was that it is not as crooked as it might look in the video.

Here are the pertinent NOTEs from the YouTube video descriptions:

from NV J.33 – Top 10 Secrets of a Good Draw/Backspin/Screw-Back Shot:
When I watched this shot in person, I was standing right behind the camera and I don't remember her stroke being that crooked. I think I would have noticed if it was, and I would have asked her to shoot again with a straighter stroke. I think it looks crooked in the video partly due to perspective issues with the camera angle and pendulum swing. I have seen this effect is other videos also. Samm's aim might have been slightly off and she might have hit the CB slightly off center, but her stroke was not as crooked as it might have appeared in the video. Again camera perspective can create optical illusions since the vertical angle of the cue (up and down) is changing during the pendulum stroke.

from NV J.34 – Is this Stroke Crooked … or is it Parallax?:
NOTE: Samm's stroke looks more crooked than mine in the video for three reasons:
1.) The camera angle was slightly different (at a larger angle) with her shot.
2.) As I pointed out in the video, her arm is shorter, which increases the up and down motion of the cue with the pendulum stroke for a given stroke length. This increases the perspective/parallax effect.
3.) Her stroke was definitely not straight, but not by as much as the video suggests. The "apparent" crookedness is exaggerated by the perspective/parallax effect.

Further explanation of the perspective/parallax effect:
When the camera is not straight inline with the shot, the perceived direction the cue is pointing varies with cue elevation, as clearly demonstrated with the examples in the video. If one uses a pendulum stroke, with a fixed shoulder and elbow, the cue elevation changes during the stroke. Therefore, the perceived direction of the cue changes during the stroke. I can assure you the strokes in this video were straighter than they look (albeit, Samm's stroke was definitely not straight).

Hits 'em Hard said:
Her stroke is crooked for one simple reason. The cue ball should have drawn straight back to its starting point.

Actually, it is very possible to draw straight back with a crooked stroke (especially if the crookedness is after the hit, during the follow through). It is also possible to draw back crooked with a perfectly straight stroke (aimed in the wrong direction).

Hits 'em Hard said:
Do you need an art class to understand perspectives?

I actually took a drafting course in college many years ago. It was the last year it was taught before we switched over to computer drafting and modeling software. I learned a lot about perspective projections in that course. I drew many 3D-to-2D projections by hand. I really enjoyed that part of the course. So I probably know more about perspective and 3D-to-2D projections than many (if not most) people.

Regards,
Dave

Crooked Pro Pool Strokes in Video

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