Advice on inside & outside english??

sharpshooter said:

Hi Louis, I remember seeing a video by Bert Kinister where he proclaimed that he had found the secret to english control without the need to compensate for deflection/curve when cueing. On his tape he said that Tony Robles had revealed to him a long held secret that many pros used (including Earl & Efren) but never disclosed to others. It was a type of "pivoting" english whereby you would aim with center ball and at the last moment as you contacted the cue ball you would twist your stroke and impart the english, somewhat swerving your stroking arm. Bert said that this tecnique produced maximum spin with no deflection or need to adjust your aim.

My question is: do you use this technique or is there a better method for applying inside and outside spin. What practice routines would you recommend to improve english control and create maximum spin with minimum stroking effort if there is such a thing. Thanks again and best of luck at the DCC!!!

Click to expand...

I use the pivoting technique on most of my shots that require english. I honestly don't know if it's the best way to do it but it works for me. You pretty much just need to get used to the timing through the ball so that you catch the center of the ball at contact, but apply enough "twist" to get the ball to spin in the direction that you want it to go.

If there is a drawback to doing this I would say that you have to have a good feel for what you are doing because you have to be the source of the english. It's not as easy to describe this feeling as it would be to say put one tip, or two tips of english on the ball.

I don't know Bert Kinister or his teachings. I have seen that he has quite a few instructional videos out and he probably wouldn't still be in business if they were bad.

I would suggest try it out and see if it works for you. I think that different instructors would have their own arguments on what is the best way to put english on the cue ball, but you should use what works best for you.

sharpshooter said:

Thanks alot Louis. So then if you want more spin you would just twist a little more, and less spin would require very little twisting. This is where you say you are the source of the english and feel comes into play. Do you still allow a bit for deflection on your shots when you shoot harder with lots of spin? Thanks again and keep shooting lights out!!

Click to expand...

That's a good question and now that you mention it I don't believe that I do.

Compensating for deflection is not necessary if you learn to treat a shot with english differently than you would if you were using center ball. For example, if I'm practicing a 14 degree shot with inside english, I don't think to line up with center ball and pivot into the spin. I just line up to the point that I know the ball will be pocketed with inside spin on the cue ball.

With that being said, it would make sense that there is still some deflection on the cue ball with this system, it's just lessened by making a fuller hit on the cue ball.

I hope that makes sense. It's easier to show what's going on then to put it into words.

Play around with it and see how it works. The experience of executing the shot will be your best teacher.

Hi Louis,

So are you saying that you line up with a center ball hit and only twist your cue right or left after contact has been made with the cue-ball?

I've played with this pivot system before and had varying results, but perhaps this was because I performed the twist at the end of my backswing on the final stroke. Bert Kinister never mentioned the importance of hitting the cueball dead center before pivoting! I will try this again tonight when I get home.

On another note, do you have any recommendations or drills for perfecting a straight stroke? I've been playing for about 10 years now and I beleive I have a good stroke, however I know I have the tendency to stroke off center on my final stroke. This usually happens on shots which require a firm or hard stroke.

Thanks,

Phil

pip9ball said:

Hi Louis,

So are you saying that you line up with a center ball hit and only twist your cue right or left after contact has been made with the cue-ball?

I've played with this pivot system before and had varying results, but perhaps this was because I performed the twist at the end of my backswing on the final stroke. Bert Kinister never mentioned the importance of hitting the cueball dead center before pivoting! I will try this again tonight when I get home.

On another note, do you have any recommendations or drills for perfecting a straight stroke? I've been playing for about 10 years now and I beleive I have a good stroke, however I know I have the tendency to stroke off center on my final stroke. This usually happens on shots which require a firm or hard stroke.

Thanks,

Phil

Click to expand...

Hello Phil, I would like to give you some feedback if you don't mind.
Applying English: Aim the shot up with center ball. Guide the tip with your bridge hand to the desired spot on the cueball then adjust your back hand just opposite of your bridge hand. The purpose of this is to reduce the amount of squirt that you will apply to the cueball when using english. The pitfall is using english that is parallel to the aiming line, which seems like the right thing to do, but it causes the maximum amount of squirt. You will need to experiment with how much english vs. the speed of the shot. On straight in shots, you almost never want to use english. You will just have to take your medicine.
Perfecting a straight stroke: This should be your first priority. Proper mechanics will help you the most. GRIP:The purpose of the grip is to hold the cue. A good grip is held with the front or rear fingers with a straight wrist. Grip pressure should remain constant throughout the entire range of the stroke. If you squeeze the cue tightly, we will call that a grip pressure of 10. Now imagine what a 3 would feel like and try that. BRIDGE:The bridge should be stable allowing free movement of the cue. You need to find the bridge length that is best for you. You do this by addressing the cueball as close as possible with the tip. Your back hand, wrist and forearm should be straight and point straight down from the elbow. If you feel you are too close or too far away from the cueball, just adjust accordingly. You want to be able to strike the cueball with your back hand just under, or slightly behind your elbow at the point of impact. STROKE:The stroke should move straight back and forward and accelerate through the cueball. Do not twist the cue ever, for any reason. At the end of the stroke, stay down, freeze and check the tip position. This will give you feedback on why you missed a shot. Is it up in the air? L or R of the aim line?
Drills: 1)Ball address and alignment. Use a striped ball and place it on the head or foot spot with the stripe on its vertical axis. Shoot the ball to the end rail with normal speed and freeze. No warmup strokes allowed. Observe the ball as it travels to see if there is any sidespin. The goal is to get the ball to come back and contact the cuetip. Adjust accordingly. Once you can do this 10 times in a row, try using your warmup strokes and repeat using different speeds and tip positions along the vertical axis. 2)Stop, draw, follow in a straight line. Place the cueball 3 ball widths from the side rail and on the head or foot string. Place an object ball one diamond away in a straight line towards the corner pocket at the end rail. Pocket the ball with a stop shot and repeat for 5 repititions. Move on to the next diamond only after you can execute a perfect stop shot 5 times in a row. Do this for each diamond along the side rail on both sides of the table. Once you master the stop shot then move on to draw and follow one diamond at a time.
There is only so much you can learn here and on your own. Learning from a certified BCA instructor is time and money well spent and I hope you get the opportunity to do so. Best of luck to you and I hope I was able to help.

pip9ball said:

Hi Louis,



On another note, do you have any recommendations or drills for perfecting a straight stroke? I've been playing for about 10 years now and I beleive I have a good stroke, however I know I have the tendency to stroke off center on my final stroke. This usually happens on shots which require a firm or hard stroke.

Thanks,

Phil

Click to expand...

Hi Phil,

One of the best drills that you can do to help with your stroke at high speeds is to set up straight in shots with some distance between the cue ball and the object ball. Start off shooting your stop shot with an easy speed. When the cue ball stops, make sure that it didn't have any twist after impact. After you can stop the ball dead with that speed, increase to a medium speed. Again, make sure you can make the ball stop dead with no side rotation after impact. Gradually work your way up to a fast speed. This will take time, so don't be frustrated with slow results if it doesn't come right away.

Doing this will help you to be mindful of how straight you are going through the ball and will help with your concentration.

Just a note on this: Most of the time if you have to hit the cue ball hard enough to go more than 4 lengths of the table, you are probably hitting the ball unnecessarily hard.

Best of luck!

Louis,

Thanks for the feedback! I will add this drill to my routine list of practice shots.

As for your side note regarding the firmness of the hit...I completely agree that most people hit the ball too hard most of the time. On straight in shots Im usually pretty consistent on not imparting unwanted spin. My stroke problem is more apparent when cutting balls to the left. (Im right handed).

I'll continue to practice this drill until I see results! Thanks again!!

-Phil