Race to handicap 9 ball tournament

BAZARUS

BAZARUS

alien in a strange land
Silver Member
Hi all

Its been a while since last time I've been on the forum.

I will be running 9 ball tour in my local pool hall and I'd like to hear from you guys if you could give me some suggestion on how to set a handicap for players and how to adjust during a tournament.
Tour will be every week on thursday night in a pool hall with 10 nine footers (8 Brunswick and 2 Diamonds).
I was thinking about starting-lowest handicap "5" for players that I don't know or any other players with low skill level. It will be an alternate break determine by a coin flip. Tour will have points ranking updated every week, but I am not sure how many points to give to each player. I have double elimination brackets ready for 32 players. Also there will be 9 ball break-n-run contest(5 raffle tickets for $5.00 or 15 tickets for $10.00). I was thinking about 2 drawings each week and if there is no winner money goes to the pot for next week.
I have a lot to think about and I'd like some advices from you on how to run it.

Thanx in advance.
 
cigardave

cigardave

Who's got a light?
Silver Member
If it were me, I forget about handicapping it... more trouble than it's worth imo... typically leading to a lot of pissing and moaning about ratings.
 
ScottW

ScottW

Fo' shizzle!
Silver Member
There's a handicap system out there that's kinda funky. Runs on two values - a larger point value and a handicap value based on where your larger point value is. Each handicap value is a range of the larger value. Winning matches moves your larger value up a bit, losing down a bit - and your handicap value changes as your larger value crosses the line (up or down). Then there's charts for how to work the races based on the two player's handicap values.

A friend has started running a tournament series nearby using this handicap method, and it seems to work pretty well. It's an eight-ball tournament, but I don't see why it couldn't apply to nine-ball as well.

I could point you to a webpage on his site that spells out the system, but I know he's using an existing system out there - I've seen webpages on it (the ones my friend found), so I'll try and dig that up and post the link here.
 
uwate

uwate

daydreaming about pool
Silver Member
--Use single elimination. If you dont, slow playing top players will have you there til 4am
--10s and above spot the 6s and below the 8 as well as the games
--take 10-15% out of the entry fee each week until you get $1k. Do an added money tournament. Make eligibility requirements like must have played in 5 tournaments to qualify for big tourny
--For the system to work, you have to be willing to spend the time to handicap players right. The places I have seen handicapped tournaments work the best is where the TD knows how to clock player speed carefully.
--Make strangers play as at least an 8 or 9. Do not allow first time strangers to take home the money unless they outrun the nuts.
 
Drew

Drew

Got a little dog in you?
Silver Member
BAZARUS said:
Hi all

Its been a while since last time I've been on the forum.

I will be running 9 ball tour in my local pool hall and I'd like to hear from you guys if you could give me some suggestion on how to set a handicap for players and how to adjust during a tournament.
Tour will be every week on thursday night in a pool hall with 10 nine footers (8 Brunswick and 2 Diamonds).
I was thinking about starting-lowest handicap "5" for players that I don't know or any other players with low skill level. It will be an alternate break determine by a coin flip. Tour will have points ranking updated every week, but I am not sure how many points to give to each player. I have double elimination brackets ready for 32 players. Also there will be 9 ball break-n-run contest(5 raffle tickets for $5.00 or 15 tickets for $10.00). I was thinking about 2 drawings each week and if there is no winner money goes to the pot for next week.
I have a lot to think about and I'd like some advices from you on how to run it.

Thanx in advance.
Click to expand...

I'd make unknown players start at the highest handicap. On 9 ft tables, I'd go with 4 handicaps. C's go to 4, B's go to 5, A's go to 6, AA's go to 7. Anyone who places in the top 4 automatically jumps a handicap. If you don't place for 4 weeks, you go down a level. To reduce sandbagging, if a player consistently gets 5th (i.e. 50% of the tour) bump him up. Will there be payouts after every tournament or will you only give points? If you only award points for each tournament, then automatically, everyone who plays, gets a point. Award additional points to the top 66%. If you also have a payout after each tournament award points to the top 50% and payout the top 12.5%. You should have a separate "end of tour" tournament in which the minimum points to enter is the number of weeks the tour has gone. For example, an 8 week tour requires 8 points to compete. Also, award money for various achievements: most points, most improved, most tournaments won. Your last tournament should pay out to the top 33%. Good luck.
 
BAZARUS

BAZARUS

alien in a strange land
Silver Member
Yes, besides points I'll pay out also. Entry fee is $10.00 and I was thinking about giving $2.00 from each entry to the pool hall owners for green fee.
I am also planning King of the Hill tournament for the qualifying players that erned enough points(how many, don't know); ...4 times a year???
 
Drew

Drew

Got a little dog in you?
Silver Member
BAZARUS said:
Yes, besides points I'll pay out also. Entry fee is $10.00 and I was thinking about giving $2.00 from each entry to the pool hall owners for green fee.
I am also planning King of the Hill tournament for the qualifying players that erned enough points(how many, don't know); ...4 times a year???
Click to expand...

Make sure you let the loyal players who competed in all the tournaments into your king of the hill. Most of the tournaments out here charge an extra green fee of $2. So you see a lot of entry fees like 12 or 22.
 
ScottW

ScottW

Fo' shizzle!
Silver Member
BAZARUS said:
Yes, besides points I'll pay out also. Entry fee is $10.00 and I was thinking about giving $2.00 from each entry to the pool hall owners for green fee.
I am also planning King of the Hill tournament for the qualifying players that erned enough points(how many, don't know); ...4 times a year???
Click to expand...

I hate to bring up my friend and his new tournament series again so quick, but... this touches on something we were discussing this past weekend (when he had his last tournament), which is, what is the venue doing for the tournament?

This particular tournament, the fellow is charging $24. Some of that is going into a end-of-series fund. Most of it is being paid out. But a good chunk - I think around $7 or $8 - is going to the venue for green fees. (The place has ten 9 footers, most/all of which we end up using from the start, and turn in ball trays as the field thins out.)

But the venue doesn't do ANYTHING for the tournament or the players. They don't have any drink specials. They won't bring their cook in early on that one Saturday a month to open the kitchen. All they do is benefit, and benefit big in the end - as we're bringing in a bunch of people during the day Saturday when there's usually NOBODY there.

The reason I bring this up is, try to work your relationship with the venue so that it's a win-win situation. Don't let them take advantage of you - and don't look to take advantage of them.
 
Drew

Drew

Got a little dog in you?
Silver Member
ScottW said:
I hate to bring up my friend and his new tournament series again so quick, but... this touches on something we were discussing this past weekend (when he had his last tournament), which is, what is the venue doing for the tournament?

This particular tournament, the fellow is charging $24. Some of that is going into a end-of-series fund. Most of it is being paid out. But a good chunk - I think around $7 or $8 - is going to the venue for green fees. (The place has ten 9 footers, most/all of which we end up using from the start, and turn in ball trays as the field thins out.)

But the venue doesn't do ANYTHING for the tournament or the players. They don't have any drink specials. They won't bring their cook in early on that one Saturday a month to open the kitchen. All they do is benefit, and benefit big in the end - as we're bringing in a bunch of people during the day Saturday when there's usually NOBODY there.

The reason I bring this up is, try to work your relationship with the venue so that it's a win-win situation. Don't let them take advantage of you - and don't look to take advantage of them.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to jack this thread but quick question...Where and when is this tournament? Any big names usually play? I might have to stop by and try it out.
 
Russ Chewning

Russ Chewning

Short Bus Russ - C player
Silver Member
Sorry, I can't do anything but advise you to make the tourney open.

I hate handicapped tournaments with every fiber of my being. I wouldn't be the play I am if I had participated in handicapped tournaments as a young player. Handicapped tourneys keeo the good players away, and it doesn't really help out the developing player at all, because it gives false reinforcement to inferior skills.

Look at it another way. When you read all these great stories about weekly tourneys in such and such a region, where John RunsOutaLot played every week.. Did you ever read that it was a handicapped tourney? No.

When people speak fondly of weekly tourneys, it usually goes like this:

"Linda, remember the City Lights Thursday and Dr. Cue's Friday 9 ball tourneys? Man! They were the toughest fields in the whole state for YEARS!"

Myself, I just never heard anyone speak fondly of a handicapped tourney. Beating good players in an open field is what gives people memories. I would do what you can to draw the good players to an open tourney..

Russ
 
Russ Chewning

Russ Chewning

Short Bus Russ - C player
Silver Member
Drew said:
I don't mean to jack this thread but quick question...Where and when is this tournament? Any big names usually play? I might have to stop by and try it out.
Click to expand...

With a 33% green fee, I would swim a river of **** to put out the word to every player I knew to avoid this place.

But that's just me. I'm a controversial guy.

Russ
 
BAZARUS

BAZARUS

alien in a strange land
Silver Member
I understand your frustration about handicaped tourney. I was an active pool player back home (Poland) in 80's and 90's where noone even heard about handicap system. Every single tournament (local or not) was straight up race to whatever. There was a guy born in Poland like me, but living in Germany for good. In 1989 when communism broke down in my country the first pool tables arrived all over the place and there was a pool explotion everywhere. Nobody really knew how to play, so everyone was self learning. When this polish dude living in Germany found out that back home pool tournaments are rolling he came back to shoot some pool. Gess what....this guy was playing 3rd league pool in Germany for about 6 years. When he relocated back to Poland he was winning every single tournament for 3 years. Nobody could beat him, simply because he was years ahead from everyone. As you know you need to practice many years to become a good player. So, this guy had no handicap, because nobody never thought about this. Everyones opinion was, well you need to improve your game to beat this guy. After about 2 years 1 talented player started to winning against this guy. About a year later there was a few more people that could stand up to him. I also do not prefer a handicap tourney as I always wanted to become a pro and I got to a A+ level, but didn't made it further for whole bunch of shity reasons.
Anyways my point is that a handicap tourney is for that particular reason, so everyone have equal chance to win. Its mostly for entertaiment not mainly to improve your skills. If you are a serious player you get your 8 hours a day practice and you will find that plaing in a handicap tournament its a actual chalange to bit a players that you have to go against to, lets say for example you go to 14 and your opponent goes to 3 or 4. I think it is a very good practice on your way to become a champion. Also the other reason is stricly commercial, so you can bring more people to a pool hall. I used to work for about 2 yeaars in High Pockets (Memphis, TN) and I only won 2 of them, once as a 7 and once as a 10. I think its a good challange and good entertaiment as well.
 
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ScottW

ScottW

Fo' shizzle!
Silver Member
The thing is, even with a handicap system - the superior player *should* win pretty much every time - as the superior player *should* win every game, barring situations like the weaker player breaking and running, superior player breaking dry and weaker player running out, etc.

IMHO a strong player complaining about a tournament being handicapped is often someone upset that their obvious advantage has been curtailed - yet they're still going to be the favorite to win their matches against lower-handicapped players.

Now, in APA league, I *have* seen, quite a few times, the lower-handicap player win a match against someone a few notches higher - but usually that's because the higher-ranked player made mistakes, often mistakes he/she wouldn't make - because the lopsided race is all in their head and they're letting it affect their game. And that's nobody's fault but their own. When that happens to me, I look no further than my own self as far as why I lost.
 
BAZARUS

BAZARUS

alien in a strange land
Silver Member
Originally Posted by ScottW
I hate to bring up my friend and his new tournament series again so quick, but... this touches on something we were discussing this past weekend (when he had his last tournament), which is, what is the venue doing for the tournament?

This particular tournament, the fellow is charging $24. Some of that is going into a end-of-series fund. Most of it is being paid out. But a good chunk - I think around $7 or $8 - is going to the venue for green fees. (The place has ten 9 footers, most/all of which we end up using from the start, and turn in ball trays as the field thins out.)

But the venue doesn't do ANYTHING for the tournament or the players. They don't have any drink specials. They won't bring their cook in early on that one Saturday a month to open the kitchen. All they do is benefit, and benefit big in the end - as we're bringing in a bunch of people during the day Saturday when there's usually NOBODY there.

The reason I bring this up is, try to work your relationship with the venue so that it's a win-win situation. Don't let them take advantage of you - and don't look to take advantage of them.
Click to expand...



I've been through this before. Those owners are really nice people. I personaly do not expect anything from that, pretty much am doing this for entertaiment and perhaps free entry to the tournament and free practice time. Since this will be a long tournament, the place will benefit from selling drinks and food. We also have pretty good poker tournament twice a week.
 
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BAZARUS

BAZARUS

alien in a strange land
Silver Member
uwate said:
--Use single elimination. If you dont, slow playing top players will have you there til 4am
--10s and above spot the 6s and below the 8 as well as the games
--take 10-15% out of the entry fee each week until you get $1k. Do an added money tournament. Make eligibility requirements like must have played in 5 tournaments to qualify for big tourny
--For the system to work, you have to be willing to spend the time to handicap players right. The places I have seen handicapped tournaments work the best is where the TD knows how to clock player speed carefully.
--Make strangers play as at least an 8 or 9. Do not allow first time strangers to take home the money unless they outrun the nuts.
Click to expand...


I'll stay with a double elimination format. Its better for players and better for the place.
 
Cory in DC

Cory in DC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ScottW said:
The thing is, even with a handicap system - the superior player *should* win pretty much every time - as the superior player *should* win every game, barring situations like the weaker player breaking and running, superior player breaking dry and weaker player running out, etc.

IMHO a strong player complaining about a tournament being handicapped is often someone upset that their obvious advantage has been curtailed - yet they're still going to be the favorite to win their matches against lower-handicapped players.

Now, in APA league, I *have* seen, quite a few times, the lower-handicap player win a match against someone a few notches higher - but usually that's because the higher-ranked player made mistakes, often mistakes he/she wouldn't make - because the lopsided race is all in their head and they're letting it affect their game. And that's nobody's fault but their own. When that happens to me, I look no further than my own self as far as why I lost.
Click to expand...
Well said--I run a handicapped tournament, and I agree 100% with what you say. I might also add that the handicap fills up the field, which plays to the advantage of the better players in the long run.

Cory
 
Cory in DC

Cory in DC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BAZARUS said:
I'll stay with a double elimination format. Its better for players and better for the place.
Click to expand...
Double-elimination is more fun, but it really, really sucks when the winner of the winners side has to sit around for 1+ hours waiting for the losers side to finish.

The way I've gotten around this is to have three handicap charts. One applies to the majority of the races in the winners side (e.g. race to 5 baseline+/-adjustment for handicap); one has longer races for the finals of the winners side (e.g., race to 7+/-adjustments); and the third applies to the losers side (e.g., race to 3 or 4+/-adjustments).

Good luck!
Cory
 
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