APA Needs to re-examine the handicap system!

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ridinda9

AKA: Sandy Bagger
Silver Member
phread59 said:
OK Operator, I can buy that, BUT. There was at least 4 months between my qualifing and the tournament. There was about 2 months from the qualifier to the end of the session. Maybe 6-7 weeks. My memory is a little fuzzy on the time. It should not take 4 months to readjust my SL!!!!! And I will also telly you the bumping of skill levels was a common theme at the Vegas qualifier. I spoke to at least 5 individuals who were bumped similarly. Why were there no 3's or 2's at the qualifier? I feel the Tournament Director had some input so's to make the Qualifier simpler.

Good Lord he needed simple. The TD was the single most inept, stupid moron to ever run a tournament. Hell he didn't even show up on time. He was 45 minuits late. That is another sad story in and of itself.

Mark Shuman
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There is one more possibility that no one mentioned . There is the chance that the break between sessions is when your local Handicap Review Committee meets . Since it is the session break , they don't have to be at their matches , so this is the ideal time for the local committee (made up of experienced players & div reps) to get together & hash out what they've witnessed/what the sheets say .
Many LOs have great secrecy surrounding who's on their HRC and when it meets - but experienced players can tell when they've met by all the sudden changes on rosters that 'just happened' . . . ;)
 
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ridinda9

AKA: Sandy Bagger
Silver Member
Anunnaki said:
We intentionally threw a match at the last LTC just so we wouldn't have to return at 9:00am the following day.
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Some clarification may be in order here .

Do you mean to say you "forfeited" the match , or did your players actually come to the table , and play to lose ?

The latter would effect your tournament handicaps , and be the definition of sandbagging !:frown:
 
A

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
phread59 said:
OK Operator, I can buy that, BUT. There was at least 4 months between my qualifing and the tournament. There was about 2 months from the qualifier to the end of the session. Maybe 6-7 weeks. My memory is a little fuzzy on the time. It should not take 4 months to readjust my SL!!!!! And I will also telly you the bumping of skill levels was a common theme at the Vegas qualifier. I spoke to at least 5 individuals who were bumped similarly. Why were there no 3's or 2's at the qualifier? I feel the Tournament Director had some input so's to make the Qualifier simpler.

Good Lord he needed simple. The TD was the single most inept, stupid moron to ever run a tournament. Hell he didn't even show up on time. He was 45 minuits late. That is another sad story in and of itself.

Mark Shuman
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It doesn't matter how long a gap there was between the qualifier and the tournament. Your operator scored the qualifier, then immediately sent a copy of your record to the national office. This record is the one used in the regional, even though the regional wasn't for four months. Meanwhile, the match (or matches) you played in league the week of the qualifier also went into the system, causing your skill level to remain at 3.

This is just one possible mathematical way it could happen. It's probably not what actually happened (see my reply to Ridinda9, which I haven't written yet ;-).

It sounds like you had a bad experience, and that is unfortunate. The TD didn't monkey with skill levels though. The packet you received (or should have, they were mailed to every participant in the country) told you the skill level you would be participating at, didn't it? That was sent from the national office.
 
A

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ridinda9 said:
There is one more possibility that no one mentioned . There is the chance that the break between sessions is when your local Handicap Review Committee meets . Since it is the session break , they don't have to be at their matches , so this is the ideal time for the local committee (made up of experienced players & div reps) to get together & hash out what they've witnessed/what the sheets say .
Many LOs have great secrecy surrounding who's on their HRC and when it meets - but experienced players can tell when they've met by all the sudden changes on rosters that 'just happened' . . . ;)
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While the local HRC could raise a player, that wouldn't affect just the singles regional. It would have had to be back in December, too. After the qualifying window closes, every operator has to certify the skill level of players participating in a singles regional. They fill out a form with current skill levels. There is also room on the form to put a skill level assigned by the local HRC. If the HRC meets after the form is returned to APA, the assigned skill level wouldn't make it into the regional. The player would go up locally, but not in the tournament.

The MOST LIKELY thing that happened (and thanks for reminding me of this) is that players were raised by the National Handicap Review Committee. The NHRC did meet in January and reviewed the skill levels of everyone participating in singles regionals, and I know some players were raised. I don't know who or how many, but there is absolutely no way anybody was raised to fit players into brackets.
 
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theycallmerock

Registered
APA Operator said:
For me, it does take first-hand evidence. That usually means someone who played on a team with this person or who I assigned to watch them reporting it and being willing to sign an affidavit. Not "I think" stuff, but "he said", "he told me to do..." stuff. Second-hand ("I heard him") reports from someone who may have an agenda don't count as first-hand evidence, so that kind of stuff results in heavy scrutiny of skill levels, but doesn't qualify as being caught.
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My concern there would be the revenge factor. Joe used to shoot with Jim, but Jim put Joe off the team so Joe reports back that Jim told him to dump on many occasions or Jim dumps all the time. I wonder if any operators have ever performed any trend analysis to identify patterns and what not. Not sure it would help but would be curious to see the results.
 
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lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA Operator said:
While the local HRC could raise a player, that wouldn't affect just the singles regional. It would have had to be back in December, too. After the qualifying window closes, every operator has to certify the skill level of players participating in a singles regional. They fill out a form with current skill levels. There is also room on the form to put a skill level assigned by the local HRC. If the HRC meets after the form is returned to APA, the assigned skill level wouldn't make it into the regional. The player would go up locally, but not in the tournament.

The MOST LIKELY thing that happened (and thanks for reminding me of this) is that players were raised by the National Handicap Review Committee. The NHRC did meet in January and reviewed the skill levels of everyone participating in singles regionals, and I know some players were raised. I don't know who or how many, but there is absolutely no way anybody was raised to fit players into brackets.
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i qualified for my top gun as a 3. the day of the tournament i was informed i had been raised to a 4 that week. i was allowed to play in the 3 bracket but as a 4. some of the players didnt look to happy but i never heard any complaints. lost my 1st match but come back thru losers bracket and won the tournament.

2 weeks before the regionals i am raised to a 5. i asked my lo what happens at the regionl, he said the same as in top gun , i would play in 4 bracket but as a 5. i went 2 and out. if i had played as a 4 i would have won those 2 matches as i got to my hill before they got to theirs. dont know how i would have done ] the rest of the tournament never got a chance to find out. lol
 
A

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lorider said:
i qualified for my top gun as a 3. the day of the tournament i was informed i had been raised to a 4 that week. i was allowed to play in the 3 bracket but as a 4. some of the players didnt look to happy but i never heard any complaints. lost my 1st match but come back thru losers bracket and won the tournament.

2 weeks before the regionals i am raised to a 5. i asked my lo what happens at the regionl, he said the same as in top gun , i would play in 4 bracket but as a 5. i went 2 and out. if i had played as a 4 i would have won those 2 matches as i got to my hill before they got to theirs. dont know how i would have done ] the rest of the tournament never got a chance to find out. lol
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Really? You're talking about a singles regional in 8-Ball, right?

The only way a 5 plays in the 4 bracket is if they certify themselves as a 5 when they register at the event. Is that what you did?
 
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lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA Operator said:
Really? You're talking about a singles regional in 8-Ball, right?

The only way a 5 plays in the 4 bracket is if they certify themselves as a 5 when they register at the event. Is that what you did?
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yes. i told the league operator when i got there that i had just been raised to a 5 2 weeks prior. i assumed i had to do the same as i was told at the top gun tournament. you saying i could have played as a 4 anyway?
 
A

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lorider said:
yes. i told the league operator when i got there that i had just been raised to a 5 2 weeks prior. i assumed i had to do the same as i was told at the top gun tournament. you saying i could have played as a 4 anyway?
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Every participant was given a certification form to fill out and sign. On that form you are supposed to put the number that you believe accurately reflects your playing ability. Then you play at the higher of that number or the number in the computer. You didn't have to put five if you truly thought you were a four.
 
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lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
thanks for the info. like i posted earlier im new to league play. i was going by what my lo told me. i filled out the foem the day of the tournament and put the ranking i was just raised to. i have no idea what ranking was in the computer at that time.

what would happen if i had entered as a 4 and later it was discovered i had been raised to a 5 ? example; i win the tournament and an opponent learns that im a 5 and protests. would i be disqualified?
 
A

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lorider said:
thanks for the info. like i posted earlier im new to league play. i was going by what my lo told me. i filled out the foem the day of the tournament and put the ranking i was just raised to. i have no idea what ranking was in the computer at that time.

what would happen if i had entered as a 4 and later it was discovered i had been raised to a 5 ? example; i win the tournament and an opponent learns that im a 5 and protests. would i be disqualified?
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Probably not, especially since your local promotion was recent. However, if you wrote 4 on the form and shot like a 6 or 7, the 4 would hurt you if there was a potential DQ.

Here's what I tell players. Be honest. Write what you think you are and you have nothing to worry about.
 
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lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA Operator said:
Probably not, especially since your local promotion was recent. However, if you wrote 4 on the form and shot like a 6 or 7, the 4 would hurt you if there was a potential DQ.

Here's what I tell players. Be honest. Write what you think you are and you have nothing to worry about.
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thanks for the info. wish you was my league operator. not going to say anything bad about my lo. i think he is a pretty cool guy. guess he may not know the rules as good as you. im going to hang in there and try to make it again. if you dont mind i would like to get your advice a lot more when i get in situations like this again. btw i have my days where i shooy like a 6 or 7 , but not very often lol.
 
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