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09-06-2015, 08:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((Satori))) View Post
Here are my thoughts after some more work with this.

The goal for using this knowledge is:
1) To increase margin of error allowed
2) To let you know better why you missed




Does it do this?


Using the calibrated bridge length, along with a pivot that is exactly at the point needed, will eliminate the need to adjust your aim for deflection. All you have to do is use the bridge length, line up like you are using center ball then pivot.



1) In one way this will increase the margin of error you can have because if you are off where you wanted to hit the cueball the deflection will automatically increase or decrease giving you the same end result target. As long as no curve had time to take over. (If you do not understand this part then study back hand english)

2) This will also let you know better why you missed... but only because you can take deflection out of the equation. It is still possible that you missed because of a few other reasons

The above is what I liked (the benefit being that your aim did not need to be adjusted to compensate for deflection)
__________________________________________________ ____________________




Now lets talk about what I did not like.

1) The biggest thing I did not like about the pivot system is that when I pivot I could not hit my target on the cueball nearly as accurately as simply lining up with parallel english. This might just be because I have spent years with parallel english and have not practiced bhe but to me it felt as if my stroke was crooked and this feeling had my stroke hitting inaccurately.

Now if you hit inaccurately, meaning a little more outside english than expected or something similar, as stated already it will not affect the deflection but it will still effect the spin induced throw, the amount of curve, and most importantly... it will affect your position play.


My conclusion is... if you can pivot precisely and if you can stroke as accurately using bhe then there is merit in using it because it does help with deflection. Personally, I am pretty good with parallel english, meaning my adjustment for deflection is pretty solid therefor the negative of not being able to stroke as accurate and not feeling good stroking is not worth it to me. Perhaps if I had learned to play with bhe and it felt more comfortable I would feel different but that is what I have noticed messing with this stuff.





P.S.
The other factors that go into aiming... curve, collision induced throw, spin induced throw, aiming precisely in the first place... I see no benefit to using bhe over parallel english whatsoever.

Colin... in the op you stated that "There is a bridge length for these shots, which varies according to the separation of CB and OB, where the CB deflection is perfectly cancelled out by the unintended spin induced throw."

I'm not sure if this is true. The result of deflection does not change when you change the amount of english if using bhe. The result of throw does change when you change the amount of english. What I am getting at is I dont think it is correct to say that a bridge length will allow deflection to cancel throw or the opposite unless you hit a precise point on the cueball everytime. So I think it is useless for increasing the margin of error in this way.



I like threads like this that cause me to think but now I definitely have to catch some zzzzz's.
A lot their to respond to, so please remind me if I leave something out that interests you.

First let me say that the original post was mainly to provide an interesting specific example that I felt was very useful in helping people get a deeper insight into the nature of bridge length, aim, and stroke inter-relationships.

It's kind of merged into a BHE discussion, which is fine, but that complicates the issue.

Regarding my earlier mention of longer bridging on shorter CB to OB distances, I was being specific to straightish shots, where left throws right and vice versa. So basically we need to squirt the CB about 1mm to the side of LOC on the OB. If using what I call my effective pivot point, I will hit exactly at LOC. If I want to deviate by 1mm over 10 inches, I need to lengthen the bridge considerably, but if need that deviation to occur over 3 feet, my bridge lengthening is much less.

This assumes firm cueing, to reduce the effects of swerve on this particular example. In general play using BHE, longer slower shots require a longer effective pivot point, due to swerve.

Regarding CB accuracy with a pivot: When I first started using BHE with pivot to impart english, I tended to put more english on most shots that I previously had, and the unfamiliar mechanical nature of the process negatively affected my speed control.

It just takes some time for it to feel natural and to stop any tendency to bridge shift or swipe to steer during the stroke.

Nearly all players steer the CB to make shots as a way to correct imperfect alignment. I've never seen it taught, but most do it from time to time, but there's no role for it in BHE, not even much point looking at the OB during the stroke once pre-aligned with the suitable bridge length for the shot.

I'm so familiar with it now, that my equivalent to making a pot, is SETTING my bridge. That may end up to be incorrect, but I can't influence it, so the pressure is largely off. So when I stroke, my only thoughts are about how to play shape. I should add, that the bridge placement depends on me having already decided on the type and speed of shot I intend to execute, though in most cases, I have a wide range of points on the CB I could hit that still work.


Quote:
"The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin

Last edited by Colin Colenso; 09-06-2015 at 08:39 PM.
  
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09-07-2015, 01:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Colenso View Post
A lot their to respond to, so please remind me if I leave something out that interests you.

First let me say that the original post was mainly to provide an interesting specific example that I felt was very useful in helping people get a deeper insight into the nature of bridge length, aim, and stroke inter-relationships.

It's kind of merged into a BHE discussion, which is fine, but that complicates the issue.

Regarding my earlier mention of longer bridging on shorter CB to OB distances, I was being specific to straightish shots, where left throws right and vice versa. So basically we need to squirt the CB about 1mm to the side of LOC on the OB. If using what I call my effective pivot point, I will hit exactly at LOC. If I want to deviate by 1mm over 10 inches, I need to lengthen the bridge considerably, but if need that deviation to occur over 3 feet, my bridge lengthening is much less.

This assumes firm cueing, to reduce the effects of swerve on this particular example. In general play using BHE, longer slower shots require a longer effective pivot point, due to swerve.

Regarding CB accuracy with a pivot: When I first started using BHE with pivot to impart english, I tended to put more english on most shots that I previously had, and the unfamiliar mechanical nature of the process negatively affected my speed control.

It just takes some time for it to feel natural and to stop any tendency to bridge shift or swipe to steer during the stroke.

Nearly all players steer the CB to make shots as a way to correct imperfect alignment. I've never seen it taught, but most do it from time to time, but there's no role for it in BHE, not even much point looking at the OB during the stroke once pre-aligned with the suitable bridge length for the shot.

I'm so familiar with it now, that my equivalent to making a pot, is SETTING my bridge. That may end up to be incorrect, but I can't influence it, so the pressure is largely off. So when I stroke, my only thoughts are about how to play shape. I should add, that the bridge placement depends on me having already decided on the type and speed of shot I intend to execute, though in most cases, I have a wide range of points on the CB I could hit that still work.
Thanks for the thread and thank you for taking a good deal of time to answer my questions and discuss this. I believe you did give me a deeper insight into bridge length, aim, and stroke inter-relationships like you set out to do for all of us.

It is cool to hear how people do things. I like to experiment and try new things.

I learned on this post too. You said "longer slower shots require a longer effective pivot point, due to swerve." I had to think about this and try it out because for some reason yesterday I was using a shorter bridge on shots where I thought curve would come into play but you are right, of course you are it is the system you have learned and perfected. I bet this was a big cause of my lack of accuracy.


Your thoughts on the importance of bridge placement, and having already decided on the type and speed of shot you intend to execute, though in most cases, having a wide range of points on the CB you could hit that still work... that all makes sense to me.

Last edited by (((Satori))); 09-07-2015 at 02:28 AM.
  
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09-07-2015, 03:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((Satori))) View Post
Thanks for the thread and thank you for taking a good deal of time to answer my questions and discuss this. I believe you did give me a deeper insight into bridge length, aim, and stroke inter-relationships like you set out to do for all of us.

It is cool to hear how people do things. I like to experiment and try new things.

I learned on this post too. You said "longer slower shots require a longer effective pivot point, due to swerve." I had to think about this and try it out because for some reason yesterday I was using a shorter bridge on shots where I thought curve would come into play but you are right, of course you are it is the system you have learned and perfected. I bet this was a big cause of my lack of accuracy.


Your thoughts on the importance of bridge placement, and having already decided on the type and speed of shot you intend to execute, though in most cases, having a wide range of points on the CB you could hit that still work... that all makes sense to me.
Glad to have helped. 2 heads are better than one so the more who become familiar with these concepts the better the ideas will develop in the future.

btw: You might get something out of the BHE Resource Thread I've started in the Aiming forum. Trying to get all the ideas and how to's into one place.

Colin


Quote:
"The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin
  
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09-07-2015, 03:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Colenso View Post
my equivalent to making a pot, is SETTING my bridge.
I have been playing with this some more and I like it.

The above statement is very powerful.


Placing the bridge 1) on the shot line and 2) at the proper distance from the cb pretty much eliminates the concern for deflection.

Knowing this now has given me more confidence.
  
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09-21-2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by (((Satori))) View Post
I have been playing with this some more and I like it.

The above statement is very powerful.


Placing the bridge 1) on the shot line and 2) at the proper distance from the cb pretty much eliminates the concern for deflection.

Knowing this now has given me more confidence.
Glad you're getting it

Keep in mind, it's no magic bullet, because getting your bridge on the shot line accurately consistently takes a lot of work, and perhaps natural visual talent. That's why many haven't worked out it's significance and why many great players rely on stroke swiping, english and bridge adjustment to fine tune during the stroke.

It's also why looking at the OB last has become an almost religious belief.

Cheers,
Colin


Quote:
"The first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - Lord Kelvin
  
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05-05-2017, 08:00 PM

I just came across this thread. Hmm, it seemed that my Precision Potting is based on this principle, albeit some refinement. If you are interested to know the theory (which is practically sound) in more depth, I have it down in a manual.

You can view the video at https://youtu.be/tvGEu2AFNL0


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05-05-2017, 08:03 PM

However, it appears that it is not suitable for LD shaft. I believe you need to aim off if you use LD shaft otherwise the bridge will be too far back and become cumbersome.

From the feedback, parallel english is more suitable for LD shaft. I do not own a LD shaft hence I have no comment on it.


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05-05-2017, 08:30 PM

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Originally Posted by precisepotting View Post
I just came across this thread. ...
I think that some people have been trying to tell you about this since you first showed up. This has been an active subject of discussion on the interwebz for two decades. Perhaps you need to study the history a little.


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05-05-2017, 09:22 PM

Thanks for the info Colin.
I learned about BHE from Bert Kinister I think. A long time ago.
I overheard Jim Rempe talking about it to someone in the 70s but when they realised I was listening they moved.
So I had to wait 20 more years
Sometimes when there is no other way to get position. I will use BHE if I am not too far away, I don't play enough any more, to get the feedback from using different bridge lengths.
But it can be a very powerful weapon, especially on tight equipment in my experience. {Can't cheat the pockets as much.}

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05-06-2017, 10:56 AM

Thanks for all the posts. It was quite a read. One of the local Powerhouses showed me the BHE & I modified it a bit, to fit me without the pivot. Voila! Inside English is no longer my enemy... This was 10 years ago. I'm now 74.5 & still learning.

Thanks again.




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05-06-2017, 11:01 AM

For those interested in the topics in this thread, lots of related video demonstrations, instructional articles, and other information from me, Colin, and others can be found here:

back-hand english (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE) resource page

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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05-15-2017, 03:28 AM

Most might not believe it. Whether you are shooting a straight on shot or an angle shot, a shot with intentional side-spin could be more accurate in making these shots for an amateur than attempting a centre ball hit. This statement is valid only for amateurs to above average players.

Food for thought.


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05-15-2017, 09:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
For those interested in the topics in this thread, lots of related video demonstrations, instructional articles, and other information from me, Colin, and others can be found here:

back-hand english (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE) resource page

Enjoy,
Dave
Hi Dr Dave... My partner & I have been thinking about learning this pivot point info... can this system be used with any stroke, meaning not necessarily the pendulum stroke..?

Do you get players registered as instructors at your place....? I live in Oklahoma & Vernon lives in Kansas...




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05-15-2017, 12:04 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
For those interested in the topics in this thread, lots of related video demonstrations, instructional articles, and other information from me, Colin, and others can be found here:

back-hand english (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE) resource page
Hi Dr Dave... My partner & I have been thinking about learning this pivot point info... can this system be used with any stroke, meaning not necessarily the pendulum stroke..?
I see no reason why application of BHE/FHE would depend on the type of stroke (except maybe a swoop stroke).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceebee View Post
Do you get players registered as instructors at your place....? I live in Oklahoma & Vernon lives in Kansas...
I do offer BU and PBIA instructor certification and upgrade training through Dr. Dave's Pool School and the Billiard University Summer School Boot Camps.

Regards,
Dave

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