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Ssonerai
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03-10-2020, 01:32 PM

Quote:
Then they turn them fast.
Not only that, but most production house cues were (maybe still are?) made on back knife lathes. These pull the wood straight as the roughing cutter goes by, then the knife in back drops on the diagonal timed a little behind it. But the net result is if the wood was curved when it went in the lathe, it will come out with similar curve, adjusted by which ever way the wood wanted to squirm anyway to relieve stress as it was cut.

Using an A joint allows the use of shorter sections where any stress or even minor MC changes will have less effect (as built, not as abused later ) However, by the same token, i think modern makers of FS cues reveal the stress in the separate components, and throw them out. If you have ever sawn the prongs for a FS joint, some go nuts, twist, compress snake around. Some lay dead straight. Guess which ones make sense to continue in a time consuming build? I believe most also machine the cue the same way an A joint style is machined, over a long time, with a taper system and saw or router so as to create a straight blank.

The problem with FS is it takes a lot more, and better, feature wood. So the basics are quite a bit more expensive. Then the cues are usually worth less than a built up A joint type, unless made like a 360 or really well developed with veneers and such.

smt
  
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JoeyInCali
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03-10-2020, 07:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssonerai View Post
Not only that, but most production house cues were (maybe still are?) made on back knife lathes. These pull the wood straight as the roughing cutter goes by, then the knife in back drops on the diagonal timed a little behind it. But the net result is if the wood was curved when it went in the lathe, it will come out with similar curve, adjusted by which ever way the wood wanted to squirm anyway to relieve stress as it was cut.

Using an A joint allows the use of shorter sections where any stress or even minor MC changes will have less effect (as built, not as abused later ) However, by the same token, i think modern makers of FS cues reveal the stress in the separate components, and throw them out. If you have ever sawn the prongs for a FS joint, some go nuts, twist, compress snake around. Some lay dead straight. Guess which ones make sense to continue in a time consuming build? I believe most also machine the cue the same way an A joint style is machined, over a long time, with a taper system and saw or router so as to create a straight blank.

The problem with FS is it takes a lot more, and better, feature wood. So the basics are quite a bit more expensive. Then the cues are usually worth less than a built up A joint type, unless made like a 360 or really well developed with veneers and such.

smt
https://youtu.be/k_EL8yPt4aw?t=39
Single point and bearing support. Nifty to watch but cringy at the same time.
That is some 1.4" pieces joined together and tapered FOR THE FIRST time when they are already joined.
They may stay straight at the factory where the conditions are 75* and 50% MC.
Real world is another matter .
  
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Snooker Theory
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03-11-2020, 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
https://youtu.be/k_EL8yPt4aw?t=39
Single point and bearing support. Nifty to watch but cringy at the same time.
That is some 1.4" pieces joined together and tapered FOR THE FIRST time when they are already joined.
They may stay straight at the factory where the conditions are 75* and 50% MC.
Real world is another matter .
So that was the Falcon cue factory(or at least the factory they are built)? Pretty neat to see, not that I could tell the "cringy" part without you having pointed it out.

So, I am curious is this the industry standard a-joint that you mentioned in another thread, or just how the previous generation of builders like George did it? Is there even an "industry standard" or does it vary from cuemaker to cuemaker?

  
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JoeyInCali
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03-11-2020, 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooker Theory View Post
So that was the Falcon cue factory(or at least the factory they are built)? Pretty neat to see, not that I could tell the "cringy" part without you having pointed it out.

So, I am curious is this the industry standard a-joint that you mentioned in another thread, or just how the previous generation of builders like George did it? Is there even an "industry standard" or does it vary from cuemaker to cuemaker?
For factories back then, that was pretty standard.

A-joint varies across the field.
The most common is probably tenon and screw from the handle going down the forearm's bottom.
Mine's a little different. I use the forearm coring dowel. Tenon and wood thread at the bottom going down the handle.

Last edited by JoeyInCali; 03-11-2020 at 12:23 PM.
  
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DaveK
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03-11-2020, 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
https://youtu.be/k_EL8yPt4aw?t=39
Single point and bearing support. Nifty to watch but cringy at the same time.
That is some 1.4" pieces joined together and tapered FOR THE FIRST time when they are already joined.
They may stay straight at the factory where the conditions are 75* and 50% MC.
Real world is another matter .
There are a lot of Falcon cues around here that were made at that factory. No issues with mine and the others I know of.

Dave


Can't fix stupid, you're on your own.
  
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EL Picos
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03-11-2020, 12:45 PM

The best way to install joints, ferrule and butt caps on new shafts and butts to make the perfect job is to make that with a steady rest before the last cuts and finish last cuts and sanding, joints installed between center.
  
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JoeyInCali
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03-11-2020, 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Picos View Post
The best way to install joints, ferrule and butt caps on new shafts and butts to make the perfect job is to make that with a steady rest before the last cuts and finish last cuts and sanding, joints installed between center.
Why is that ?
  
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EL Picos
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03-11-2020, 04:10 PM

Shafts need supports at their 2 end to achieve the best precision when you face joints and if you make it with 2 chucks you put a stress pressure in the shaft.
Brand new 3 jaws chuck have tolerance run out of .002 to .003.
When you want precision with chuck, tight a piece in the chuck and turn it to make a center or drill and finish it with boring bar to make a collar, like this you are at .00000.
Before the last cuts, slip 2 sleeve at ends with little pressure and take little cut on them between centers and install the steady rest.
When the joint is intalled tight a blank cap in the joint and turn the 60 degrees center hole right in the steady rest, make that at each end and your job is perfect.
  
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BarenbruggeCues
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03-11-2020, 04:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Picos View Post
The best way to install joints, ferrule and butt caps on new shafts and butts to make the perfect job is to make that with a steady rest before the last cuts and finish last cuts and sanding, joints installed between center.
Quote:
JoeyInCali
Why is that ?
Probably because they don't know any other way?


Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Picos View Post
Shafts need supports at their 2 end to achieve the best precision when you face joints and if you make it with 2 chucks you put a stress pressure in the shaft.
Brand new 3 jaws chuck have tolerance run out of .002 to .003.
Not sure what you're running but I 'd send that piece of crap back.

When you want precision with chuck, tight a piece in the chuck and turn it to make a center or drill and finish it with boring bar to make a collar, like this you are at .00000.
Before the last cuts, slip 2 sleeve at ends with little pressure and take little cut on them between centers and install the steady rest.
When the joint is intalled tight a blank cap in the joint and turn the 60 degrees center hole right in the steady rest, make that at each end and your job is perfect.
I've never used a steady rest for anything cue related and seem to have everything work out just fine.

I'm sure your way may work just fine for you also.
  
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BarenbruggeCues
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03-11-2020, 04:23 PM

Quote:
industry standard a-joint
No such animal
  
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EL Picos
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03-11-2020, 04:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarenbruggeCues View Post
Probably because they don't know any other way?




I've never used a steady rest for anything cue related and seem to have everything work out just fine.

I'm sure your way may work just fine for you also.
I just explained the most accurate way, your job can be fined in chucks but really not the most accurate.
The first thing you learn at school is that chucks are not perfectly accurate.
  
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Snooker Theory
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03-11-2020, 04:45 PM

If anyone has a pic to share of their a-joint setup, I'd sincerely like to learn more about how different cue makers tackle this construction technique.

If me asking is in bad taste, my appologies, not trying to get spoon fed the techniques you guys have likely took years perfecting, just trying to better understand the process.
  
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JoeyInCali
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03-11-2020, 04:55 PM

Quote:
Shafts need supports at their 2 end to achieve the best precision when you face joints and if you make it with 2 chucks you put a stress pressure in the shaft.
That's what the REAR chuck is for .

Quote:
Brand new 3 jaws chuck have tolerance run out of .002 to .003.
When you want precision with chuck, tight a piece in the chuck and turn it to make a center or drill and finish it with boring bar to make a collar, like this you are at .00000.
Well, some have 6-jaw set true chucks.

Quote:
Before the last cuts, slip 2 sleeve at ends with little pressure and take little cut on them between centers and install the steady rest.
When the joint is intalled tight a blank cap in the joint and turn the 60 degrees center hole right in the steady rest, make that at each end and your job is perfect.
Well, technically you wouldn't NEED the steady rest if you are set-up BETWEEN CENTERS. You just need a lathe dog at the front and live center at the rear.
You want the cleanest cuts ? Use live tooling. Router/spindle and bottom cutting mill. Slow power feed with live mill. It cannot get cleaner.
But, drilling, boring and threading are better using the chuck.

What lathe do you have ?

Last edited by JoeyInCali; 03-11-2020 at 04:57 PM.
  
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EL Picos
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03-11-2020, 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
That's what the REAR chuck is for .


Well, some have 6-jaw set true chucks.


Well, technically you wouldn't NEED the steady rest if you are set-up BETWEEN CENTERS. You just need a lathe dog at the front and live center at the rear.
You want the cleanest cuts ? Use live tooling. Router/spindle and bottom cutting mill. Slow power feed with live mill. It cannot get cleaner.
But, drilling, boring and threading are better using the chuck.

What lathe do you have ?
I'm not a cues maker I'm a machinist and be sure that the most accurate method to make and face a joint is with a steady rest, but I understand that pool cues are not match rifle barrels.
  
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03-11-2020, 07:49 PM

I use my Bison 6 jaw set true plus a rear chuck. Works for me.
  
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