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Stevie Moore parallel shots CTE video - 11-07-2016, 09:53 AM

This video is interesting, and I know that center-to-edge systems work for a lot of people. I can't argue with success. I just wonder about the geometry of it. This video convinces me that the systems are, as Stevie points out, "visual systems" not logical ones, and that the visuals activate your subconscious to fix the geometry.

He sets up two sets of parallel shots in the video and uses the exact same visual and pivot for each set but with different geometrical results. I think we humans trick ourselves often, sometimes for the better, and I believe that this is the case here. If this video accurately represents how the CTE systems work, I assume that the systems must be effective by getting users close enough to the proper aim for the shot so that they don't overthink, and can therefore be relaxed enough to allow the subconscious to then take over for the fine adjustments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1mlnRiAXA8
  

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11-07-2016, 12:01 PM

I've found that if I use CTE for shots where I'm unsure, even some that look wrong, I make more of them them miss. There's no unconscious aiming at those shots.

I 'think' the way that it works is that CTE, at least for me, has me 'coil' my upper trunk to align with the shot and then 'uncoil' to the proper shot line. When I place the tip of the cue stick to the edge of the cue ball, I'm pointing at the tangent line of the pivot triangle that runs through the cue ball. I 'think' the amount of coiling is different for similar shots that result in the different shot angles for the same 'visual'.

Just my 2 pennies worth.


My Vorpal cue jabbed 'er wonky and the shot went snicker-snack. 'Twas brillig.
  
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11-07-2016, 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorpal Cue View Post
I've found that if I use CTE for shots where I'm unsure, even some that look wrong, I make more of them them miss. There's no unconscious aiming at those shots.

I 'think' the way that it works is that CTE, at least for me, has me 'coil' my upper trunk to align with the shot and then 'uncoil' to the proper shot line. When I place the tip of the cue stick to the edge of the cue ball, I'm pointing at the tangent line of the pivot triangle that runs through the cue ball. I 'think' the amount of coiling is different for similar shots that result in the different shot angles for the same 'visual'.

Just my 2 pennies worth.
I see, but I wonder if the unconscious adjustment is taking place without your conscious awareness. If you've ever practiced speed pool, running around the table and quickly making shots without thinking, you may have noticed that you make a surprising number of difficult shots. Getting out of our analytical heads is a powerful thing. Our subconscious is a powerful thing that I think gets blocked under pressure. If CTE gives you confidence, then pressure is reduced and the subconscious can release its power?
  
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11-07-2016, 05:57 PM

No, if I shoot fast I usually make extra balls by a bank or carom. If I do make them it's a very smaller percentage that if I do a quick visual and use CTE. I think I use as much "fiddling" time acquiring a visual using CTE as I do with traditional aiming methods on difficult shots. I usually spend more time getting a visual for CTE than using contact point shooting for now, but I am getting quicker picking them up by practicing.

Have you tried the parallel shots? They work for me and I've found that the same visual will give a different angle out if you 'unwind' according to the pivot angle offered by the cue ball and the 'twist' needed to acquire the visual.

Just another few bits of copper.


My Vorpal cue jabbed 'er wonky and the shot went snicker-snack. 'Twas brillig.

Last edited by Vorpal Cue; 11-07-2016 at 06:07 PM.
  
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11-11-2016, 10:56 AM

I think it's almost all perception. The table is really just two equal square boxes, side by side. Overthinking it is detrimental to your pool health :-) The ball goes to the right angle corner of the box, that's all there is to it. Think "put the ball in the corner of the square box".

Last edited by lakeman77; 11-11-2016 at 01:47 PM.
  
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11-15-2016, 09:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepepper View Post
This video is interesting, and I know that center-to-edge systems work for a lot of people. I can't argue with success. I just wonder about the geometry of it. This video convinces me that the systems are, as Stevie points out, "visual systems" not logical ones, and that the visuals activate your subconscious to fix the geometry.

He sets up two sets of parallel shots in the video and uses the exact same visual and pivot for each set but with different geometrical results. I think we humans trick ourselves often, sometimes for the better, and I believe that this is the case here. If this video accurately represents how the CTE systems work, I assume that the systems must be effective by getting users close enough to the proper aim for the shot so that they don't overthink, and can therefore be relaxed enough to allow the subconscious to then take over for the fine adjustments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1mlnRiAXA8
You assume wrongly. The system puts you on the correct shotline.

There are thousands of posts about CTE on here. You might want to research them, or much better yet, Stan Shuffet has many videos on you tube.

It's a very good system that some just can't seem to open their minds enough to grasp.
  
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11-16-2016, 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
You assume wrongly. The system puts you on the correct shotline.

There are thousands of posts about CTE on here. You might want to research them, or much better yet, Stan Shuffet has many videos on you tube.

It's a very good system that some just can't seem to open their minds enough to grasp.
I don't doubt it's a good system for getting someone close enough for finer adjustments. But the exact same approach to a shot cannot cover two different shot angles. Stevie said that the first and second shot were the exact same approach and pivot, yet the second shot went off at twice the angle of the first.

If after Stevie's set up we could freeze Stevie, freeze the cue ball and freeze the object ball, but then move the table with its pockets from shot 1 to shot 2 you'd see that what you are claiming is impossible.

I don't have any doubts that the system works for many of you, only how it works for you. There are too many shotlines for the system to get you to all of them by itself. You are adjusting.
  
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11-16-2016, 10:14 AM

The only adjustments I make are when I'm acquiring a visual. After I have the visual I'm very careful when I make the pivot to center cue ball. When I first started using CTE I couldn't look at the object ball while shooting. I shot 'blind' at the object ball by trusting the system and stroking straight through the cue ball. I definitely didn't make any unconscious adjustments learning the system.

At the beginning, if I looked at the object ball, the shot through the cue ball looked like I was aiming at the contact point with the center of the cue ball. My mind was screaming, 'NO, you can't use the center to the contact point.' But the balls kept dropping. One of the videos by Stan mentions this effect. It's a bit disconcerting until you get used to the visual. Therefore, I shot blind at the object ball at the start of my journey through CTE. Through practice you become comfortable with the visual.

I can only suggest that you try setting up some 0* to 15* shots and see how they look to you, Look at the shot after you get down and see if you're aiming at the contact point through center cue ball. Try shooting them without looking at the object ball as I did at first.

As I mentioned before, when you get the visual your body is positioned so the tangent line for the shot is presented to the outside edge of the cue ball. Rotate 90* and it brings you to the correct shot line. It will only work if you don't make any unconscious adjustments.


My Vorpal cue jabbed 'er wonky and the shot went snicker-snack. 'Twas brillig.
  
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11-16-2016, 04:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorpal Cue View Post
As I mentioned before, when you get the visual your body is positioned so the tangent line for the shot is presented to the outside edge of the cue ball. Rotate 90* and it brings you to the correct shot line. It will only work if you don't make any unconscious adjustments.
What do you mean by "the tangent line for the shot"? When I think tangent line, it is the cue ball path after collision. And what do you mean by "presented to the outside edge of the cue ball"?
  
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11-16-2016, 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepepper View Post
I don't doubt it's a good system for getting someone close enough for finer adjustments. But the exact same approach to a shot cannot cover two different shot angles. Stevie said that the first and second shot were the exact same approach and pivot, yet the second shot went off at twice the angle of the first.

If after Stevie's set up we could freeze Stevie, freeze the cue ball and freeze the object ball, but then move the table with its pockets from shot 1 to shot 2 you'd see that what you are claiming is impossible.

I don't have any doubts that the system works for many of you, only how it works for you. There are too many shotlines for the system to get you to all of them by itself. You are adjusting.
Watch it again. Odds are he said the same visuals, not the same approach. The things you are talking about have been discussed countless times on here. The visuals stay the same, the perception changes. And, no, there is no adjusting. There are infinite points that can be observed on the cb and the ob. Each perception gives a different point of reference using the same visuals.

Before you go making claims about what the system can and cannot do, like so many before you have tried to do, first learn the system to where you can use it effectively. Then, and only then, will you have enough understanding to attempt to debate it.
  
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11-16-2016, 11:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepepper View Post
I don't doubt it's a good system for getting someone close enough for finer adjustments. But the exact same approach to a shot cannot cover two different shot angles. Stevie said that the first and second shot were the exact same approach and pivot, yet the second shot went off at twice the angle of the first.

If after Stevie's set up we could freeze Stevie, freeze the cue ball and freeze the object ball, but then move the table with its pockets from shot 1 to shot 2 you'd see that what you are claiming is impossible.

I don't have any doubts that the system works for many of you, only how it works for you. There are too many shotlines for the system to get you to all of them by itself. You are adjusting.
  1. You are absolutely correct... and,
  2. You will never, ever, get a satisfactory explanation that includes what you already know must be true.

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11-17-2016, 07:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil View Post
Watch it again. Odds are he said the same visuals, not the same approach.
At 2:10 in the video:

"We looked at the shots with the same visuals. We did the same half tip manual pivot. The only difference is the system took me to this angle here which was 6 inches down the rail. Well logic would say it would take me to here (6 inches for the second shot), but it didn't. It took me 12 inches."
  
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11-17-2016, 07:56 AM

Neil, I wouldn't mind learning the system but it just doesn't add up if it's what I've read about and what I see being explained in the videos. How does one justify spending the money on something that doesn't conform to the laws of physics?

So when I came across Stevie Moore's explanation of what's going on, it revealed either a mistake in his understanding of the system or a mistake in the system itself. That's why I'm asking about it.

I'm always looking for something new. I traveled to visit Hal Houle years ago to learn his system. His system didn't add up either.

I don't want to argue about it. Like I said, I know it works for users of it. I just want to clarify why.
  
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11-17-2016, 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepepper View Post
Neil, I wouldn't mind learning the system but it just doesn't add up if it's what I've read about and what I see being explained in the videos. How does one justify spending the money on something that doesn't conform to the laws of physics?

So when I came across Stevie Moore's explanation of what's going on, it revealed either a mistake in his understanding of the system or a mistake in the system itself. That's why I'm asking about it.

I'm always looking for something new. I traveled to visit Hal Houle years ago to learn his system. His system didn't add up either.

I don't want to argue about it. Like I said, I know it works for users of it. I just want to clarify why.
Jeff,
Once my book is released I will be doing free monthly clinics for at least one year at my facility. Perhaps you can attend one of them and I will thoroughly explain ALL that you need to know for properly understanding and executing REAL CTE AIMING.
I have used CTE for years but not always exactly as I currently do. I have been in a constant state of learning for 10 years plus. What I am most proud of though is that I never gave up on putting all of the pieces together. I looking forward to sharing during my clinics.
Stan Shuffett

Last edited by stan shuffett; 11-17-2016 at 08:17 AM.
  
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11-17-2016, 08:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
Jeff,
Once my book is released I will be doing free monthly clinics for at least one year at my facility. Perhaps you can attend one of them and I will thoroughly explain ALL that you need to know for properly understanding and executing REAL CTE AIMING.
I have used CTE for years but not always exactly as I currently do. I have been in a constant state of learning for 10 years plus. What I am most proud of though is that I never gave up on putting all of the pieces together. I looking forward to sharing during my clinics.
Stan Shuffett
Thanks for posting, Stan. It looks like you're in Kentucky, so it's too far away for me.

Now that you're here, can you tell me if Stevie Moore's setup of two parallel shots with the same visuals and the same half tip pivot resulting in the second shot leaving at double the angle of the first is a misunderstanding on his part?
  
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