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Mcdermott1981
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Europeans vs USA for money!! - 03-02-2017, 02:06 PM

I thought this would be a fun conversation piece. So I vividly remember after the Euro's won the Mosconi Cup this last year, a few US players including Justin Bergman acting like they were chomping at the bit to play Albin Ouschan. I'm not exactly sure why this guy does not get more credit. He is a freaking World Champion and one of the best 9 ball players in the world.

I feel much of this talk is tied to the idea that the Euro's cannot play for the cash in the US players minds. I'm not personally a fan of Karl, but I do believe Karl Boyes waxed Oscar for the cheese at the Derby this year. I don't think many people would disagree with the fact that Oscar is one of the top 5 money players in the US.

So back to my point, am I the only person that would bet on Albin to beat Bergman if they played heads up 9 ball for at least 10-20k at a neutral site. Justin is an AWESOME player, but I don't believe he could get there against Albin.

Thoughts please!!
  
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03-02-2017, 02:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Mcdermott1981 View Post
I thought this would be a fun conversation piece. So I vividly remember after the Euro's won the Mosconi Cup this last year, a few US players including Justin Bergman acting like they were chomping at the bit to play Albin Ouschan. I'm not exactly sure why this guy does not get more credit. He is a freaking World Champion and one of the best 9 ball players in the world.

I feel much of this talk is tied to the idea that the Euro's cannot play for the cash in the US players minds. I'm not personally a fan of Karl, but I do believe Karl Boyes waxed Oscar for the cheese at the Derby this year. I don't think many people would disagree with the fact that Oscar is one of the top 5 money players in the US.

So back to my point, am I the only person that would bet on Albin to beat Bergman if they played heads up 9 ball for at least 10-20k at a neutral site. Justin is an AWESOME player, but I don't believe he could get there against Albin.

Thoughts please!!
Just for the record,

Karl is about 12 points above Oscar. That's pretty close, but there IS a favorite.

Albin and Justin are the same within 1 point....


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03-02-2017, 03:21 PM

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Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
Just for the record,

Karl is about 12 points above Oscar. That's pretty close, but there IS a favorite.

Albin and Justin are the same within 1 point....
While i respect Fargo rate system as an usable benchmark something is probably missing. If Albin and Justin are so close to each other then how is it possible that Albin is world 9b champion, world 9b runner up and China Open champion while Justin is...well...very dangerous player...but is probably considered only as a contender/prospect on international stage (not counting barbox). Considering Justins results big chunk of his winnings come from barbox tournaments. Would it be possible to calculate Justins fargorate where you count only 9/10ft table tournaments Mike? I am really curious if his fargorate on 9ft tables is similar or quite different to his current rating.
  
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03-02-2017, 03:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Mcdermott1981 View Post
... Thoughts please!!
I think there's no point in doing that unless someone else puts up the money. For evenly matched players in such a match the expected outcome is a loss due to expenses.


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03-02-2017, 05:42 PM

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Originally Posted by marek View Post
While i respect Fargo rate system as an usable benchmark something is probably missing. If Albin and Justin are so close to each other then how is it possible that Albin is world 9b champion, world 9b runner up and China Open champion while Justin is...well...very dangerous player...but is probably considered only as a contender/prospect on international stage (not counting barbox). Considering Justins results big chunk of his winnings come from barbox tournaments. Would it be possible to calculate Justins fargorate where you count only 9/10ft table tournaments Mike? I am really curious if his fargorate on 9ft tables is similar or quite different to his current rating.
Good question, but careful what you ask for ;-)

When we look at Justin's play on just 9+ foot tables, it actually goes up.

From
Turning Stone 2015
US Open 2016
Mosconi Cup 2015
Derby City Bigfoot Challenge 2016
Tornado Open Florida event
US Open 2016
Derby City Classic 2017

Justin played about 400 games at 801 speed

Albin during that same time period played 1373 games at 796 speed.

This really is a too-close-to-call matchup.


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03-03-2017, 02:58 AM

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Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
Good question, but careful what you ask for ;-)

When we look at Justin's play on just 9+ foot tables, it actually goes up.

From
Turning Stone 2015
US Open 2016
Mosconi Cup 2015
Derby City Bigfoot Challenge 2016
Tornado Open Florida event
US Open 2016
Derby City Classic 2017

Justin played about 400 games at 801 speed

Albin during that same time period played 1373 games at 796 speed.

This really is a too-close-to-call matchup.
Interesting info Mike, thats exactly what I was looking for. So my suspicion is even stronger, Justin apparently has all the tools needed..has Justin played in any oversees tournament apart Mosconi Cup..like ever? From my point of view Justin may be comfortable playing on US soil winning enough to be happy with his life style. Question is if he is hungry enough to go all the way to become international superstar like Albin - he has the tools, does he have the fire needed? Only he can answer that. I know that Justin reads this forum, it would be very interesting to see his view on this, maybe he has long term plan how/when to aproach those biggest international tournaments like WPC, China Open and Kuwait 9b Open. dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong if he is happy to play exclusively in US, I am just curious about it
  
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03-03-2017, 06:45 AM

I'm not really sure why ppl feel the need to do some hypothetical woofing on behalf of pro players i.e. I don't think X can get there if it were for 20k?

Then they go into a list of credentials like Albin has a 9b championship title so Justin can't beat him. Daryl Peach has one too but is he gonna match up w SVB who doesn't have one?

Justin only has accomplishments on bar table tournaments, so he must not be able to get there in a gambling match? That's about as backwards as it gets? Justin's gambling résumé has some notables on there like oh let's say beating orcullo.. And it was not on a bar table.

I get it that it's fun to sit around and talk match ups but don't go dogging a guy online and say I know he reads the forum or what not. If you don't think he can get there for 20k are you gonna be the one to put it up on jasmin's brother? He's a great player and all.. But I'm not dogging him either it's just the concept of calling a guy out when you have no vested interest in seeing any of it through


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03-03-2017, 06:56 AM

A lot of guys have the potential to win, bit there can be only one.

Not sure why is is hard to understand? given a tournament of exactly equal players, there will still be only one winner at the end.
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Interesting info Mike, thats exactly what I was looking for. So my suspicion is even stronger, Justin apparently has all the tools needed..has Justin played in any oversees tournament apart Mosconi Cup..like ever? From my point of view Justin may be comfortable playing on US soil winning enough to be happy with his life style. Question is if he is hungry enough to go all the way to become international superstar like Albin - he has the tools, does he have the fire needed? Only he can answer that. I know that Justin reads this forum, it would be very interesting to see his view on this, maybe he has long term plan how/when to aproach those biggest international tournaments like WPC, China Open and Kuwait 9b Open. dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong if he is happy to play exclusively in US, I am just curious about it


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03-03-2017, 07:04 AM

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Originally Posted by Black-Balled View Post
A lot of guys have the potential to win, bit there can be only one.

Not sure why is is hard to understand? given a tournament of exactly equal players, there will still be only one winner at the end.
Sure but first you have to play in such tournament to have the chance to win it in the first place and I didnt see Justin play those really big international tournaments I mentioned at all. I believe that Justin IS capable of winning big one, it is just he doesnt play in those that confuse me a little bit..
  
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03-03-2017, 07:10 AM

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Sure but first you have to play in such tournament to have the chance to win it in the first place and I didnt see Justin play those really big international tournaments I mentioned at all. I believe that Justin IS capable of winning big one, it is just he doesnt play in those that confuse me a little bit..
They are expensive and perhaps he feels his home country has better wimmins, better people, better food, better beer?

The allure of a big title is probably looke d at much differently by the players who actually have a chance. They see their fellow pros who have won big titles living the same lives as before.

A lotta effort for a little reward...but that is pool.


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03-03-2017, 07:18 AM

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I'm not really sure why ppl feel the need to do some hypothetical woofing on behalf of pro players i.e. I don't think X can get there if it were for 20k?

Then they go into a list of credentials like Albin has a 9b championship title so Justin can't beat him. Daryl Peach has one too but is he gonna match up w SVB who doesn't have one?

Justin only has accomplishments on bar table tournaments, so he must not be able to get there in a gambling match? That's about as backwards as it gets? Justin's gambling résumé has some notables on there like oh let's say beating orcullo.. And it was not on a bar table.

I get it that it's fun to sit around and talk match ups but don't go dogging a guy online and say I know he reads the forum or what not. If you don't think he can get there for 20k are you gonna be the one to put it up on jasmin's brother? He's a great player and all.. But I'm not dogging him either it's just the concept of calling a guy out when you have no vested interest in seeing any of it through
Hold your horses a little I believe that original poster only stated his view on such hypothetical money match that he would bet on Albin, thats all, nothing disrespectful against Justin. And as far as my question about barboxes goes I was just curious - I got the answer from Mike that Justins 9ft table game is even stronger than his barbox to which I replied that it confuses me even more that Justin doesnt play in big international oversees tournament even if he has the tools to win such tournament. Believe me - I got big respect to Justin as a player, he is agressive potter with VERY strong defense game. So I dont think there is a need for that little agressive response of yours, its all in good spirit here
  
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03-03-2017, 07:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Black-Balled View Post
They are expensive and perhaps he feels his home country has better wimmins, better people, better food, better beer?

The allure of a big title is probably looke d at much differently by the players who actually have a chance. They see their fellow pros who have won big titles living the same lives as before.

A lotta effort for a little reward...but that is pool.
Yes, that was basically my question/thought if Justin has the need to win one of those big tournaments, if it is worth his time/effort to go there. Because like I stated in this thread - I believe Justin has all the tools to win such tournament, he definitely has the chance .
  
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03-03-2017, 07:25 AM

I don't think many people would disagree with the fact that Oscar is one of the top 5 money players in the US.

Thoughts please!!


Although I respect Oscar and his skill level, I disagree that he is "one of the top 5 money players in the US."

Can you name some of the players that he beat for the cheese?

Also, Oscar, AFAIK, has never won a single "major" tournament either in the US or internationally.
  
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03-03-2017, 08:29 AM

Well Oscar beat Sky for the cheese a few years ago in a race to 100 then he lost to Bergman. As far the the best rotation money players in the US, here is my top 5 list in order:

1) SVB
2) Justin Bergman
3) Mike Dechaine
4) Rodney Morris
5) Skyler Woodward/Oscar(Toss up for me)
  
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03-03-2017, 08:47 AM

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Originally Posted by marek View Post
Sure but first you have to play in such tournament to have the chance to win it in the first place and I didnt see Justin play those really big international tournaments I mentioned at all. I believe that Justin IS capable of winning big one, it is just he doesnt play in those that confuse me a little bit..
Marek,

Recently you posted about a friendly competition between team Poland and some Taiwanese players. How was this financed? Who paid for team Poland's flights, hotels, meals, etc... Did the players ante up the money and pay for it themselves? If so, does team Poland consist only of part time players who all have full time jobs (outside of pool)? -If so, that is quite impressive.

Or, do they have some other form of funding such as corporate sponsorship, a sports federation, or the government?

I think the reason why so few Americans (JB included) play in international events is that they are a pure money pit. After expenses, it is almost impossible for all but a few players to turn a profit. So if money is your primary motivation -which absent sponsorship, it almost certainly has to be- international competition is a luxury which few American players can afford - especially those Americans who know how to play pool.
  
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