Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Products Talk > Ask The Cuemaker
Reload this Page Are butts constructed using a-joints more prone to warping?
Reply
Page 1 of 5 1 23 Last »
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Are butts constructed using a-joints more prone to warping?
Old
  (#1)
Snooker Theory
AzB Silver Member
Snooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond repute
 
Snooker Theory's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,112
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 34
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: US
   
Are butts constructed using a-joints more prone to warping? - 03-09-2020, 02:32 PM

Simple question, are butts that are made with a-joints more prone to warping than a full splice cue,(or other techniques)?

I figure the answer is no, since it is such a prevalent technique used by so many cue makers.
I'll post my reason for asking after getting some feedback, thanks in advance.
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
JoeyInCali
AzB Silver Member

JoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond repute
 
JoeyInCali's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 24,595
vCash: 4400
iTrader: 81 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: OC, California
   
03-09-2020, 04:56 PM

Simple answer is no.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
BarenbruggeCues
Unregistered User
BarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond repute
 
BarenbruggeCues's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,344
vCash: 500
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Just past the big Saguaro on the eastern end of the Sonoran Desert right next to the mountain by the dry river bed.
   
03-09-2020, 05:40 PM

If done correctly no more of a chance than any other technique.
If not done correctly.......maybe.
Over tightening the threads is one of the biggest culprits for movement down the road.....
Improper technique of construction which may induce internal stress is second biggest.....
And third but not least, nor last.....use of wood too early in the game.....
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
Mcues
AzB Silver Member
Mcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond reputeMcues has a reputation beyond repute
 
Mcues's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,454
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York
   
03-09-2020, 08:19 PM

The answer is no but any method done correctly would not be more prone than any other.

Mario


The trouble with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.
Mcues3@aol.com

Mcues:

https://www.facebook.com/Mcues-11355...dmin_todo_tour
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
Snooker Theory
AzB Silver Member
Snooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond repute
 
Snooker Theory's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,112
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 34
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: US
   
03-10-2020, 03:55 AM

Thanks for the responses as always.
Big thanks to Barenbrugge for the detailed explanation, appreciate you guys.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
cueman
AzB Silver Member

cueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond reputecueman has a reputation beyond repute
 
cueman's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 10,421
vCash: 4100
iTrader: 73 / 100%
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Aragon, Georgia USA
   
03-10-2020, 06:43 AM

Yes if done the way alot of people install them they warp. The A joint needs to be installed with the joint pin as straight as possible. If not straight there is side pressure created when the faces come together. Eventually it pushes the forearm over and causes the warp.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
BarenbruggeCues
Unregistered User
BarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond reputeBarenbruggeCues has a reputation beyond repute
 
BarenbruggeCues's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,344
vCash: 500
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Just past the big Saguaro on the eastern end of the Sonoran Desert right next to the mountain by the dry river bed.
   
03-10-2020, 08:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cueman View Post
Yes if done the way alot of people install them they warp. The A joint needs to be installed with the joint pin as straight as possible. If not straight there is side pressure created when the faces come together. Eventually it pushes the forearm over and causes the warp.
No doubt, one major part of the equation.
AS important is the mating of the two short pieces and making sure you are NOT cutting any wobble after the glue has dried. If you are, you will be almost guaranteed down the road movement at the joint of the 2 parts mated.
This is one of those much overlooked construction techniques I previously mentioned that is easily hid in the build and doesn't show up until time down the road after the build is completed.
Then of course, it is blamed on the handling and storage of the cue after the fact.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
measureman
AzB Silver Member
measureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond reputemeasureman has a reputation beyond repute
 
measureman's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 8,164
vCash: 1500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Denver
   
03-10-2020, 08:34 AM

I know there are a number of different ways to build an A joint.
Is there one that is the best?
Or does each cue maker have a favorite way that they consider the best?
My uneducated guess would be a full splice.
But a full splice is labor intensive and beyond the capabilities of some.


New cue-Schmelke custom Bocote merry widow
Best of the bunch- The Mighty Lucasi Cocobolo
Back up cue - Troy Downey
I woke up.
Triangles tips and Masters chalk are good enough.

Willie said I will only say this...when I beat Ralph, they would say it was because he was drinking....but every time he beat me, he was drinking too.


The Truth: If you have a stroke the gear don't matter... If you don't have a stroke the gear won't help.
The above quote by Softshot
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
Snooker Theory
AzB Silver Member
Snooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond repute
 
Snooker Theory's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,112
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 34
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: US
   
03-10-2020, 09:00 AM

The reason I posted this. I got about 25-30 older junk cues, all fairly cheap, some rather old, some new, I have only kept them to mess around with (sanding finish off, applying solarez, removing joint pins, etc.)

I put these all in a non-climate controlled storage(basically the equivalent of leaving them in the trunk of a car) about a year ago. I made some modifications to a little homemade lathe I had built and went down and picked them up last week. All the cues with a-joints had warped significantly, solid wood and fullsplice, hardly any movement at all.

Of course, this isn't definitive in any way or a knock on a-joints, and given the storage, the cheap quality cues, I doubt any correlation could be made, just thought it was interesting.

As always appreciate you guys taking time to answer questions here.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
Ssonerai
AzB Silver Member
Ssonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond reputeSsonerai has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 655
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2018
   
03-10-2020, 09:48 AM

From a wood technology standpoint, if you abuse the assembly through heat & MC stress cycle, it is easy to make the argument that an A joint, esp, with a steel pin in it, would more likely warp (& probably loosen) than FS.

Steel, esp stainless steel, shrinks and expands both length x width with changes in temp.
Wood shrinks/expands in thickness with changes in MC. Funny thing about wood, it shrinks/expands more parallel to grain lines, than 90deg to it. No 2 pieces shrink/expand alike at the same area, esp if the grain is not aligned.

So, cycle temp and MC somewhat dramatically, and the joint will fight itself, all day every day. Just setting there. I see this in restoration woodwork. All kinds of end grain wood joints that were never stressed except by temp and MC, and eventually fail over time. It is not the glue "deteriorating" so much as the joint working thousands of cycles, even millions, pulling, pushing, pulling.......

Wood takes a compression set, more or less according to local density. It is forced to compress, but never springs back the whole way. In fact, if caused by moisture, will shrink from where it started. So an assembled butt joint (A joint/steel pin) is not unlikely to compression set areas of the joint differentially, leading to a warp.

There's no particular guarantee about single pc or FS. Those will probably be dead straight at same conditions made, may (or may not) have minor (or more) warp at other times of year.

Last edited by Ssonerai; 03-10-2020 at 01:21 PM. Reason: fix typos, brain fart.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
JoeyInCali
AzB Silver Member

JoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond repute
 
JoeyInCali's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 24,595
vCash: 4400
iTrader: 81 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: OC, California
   
03-10-2020, 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooker Theory View Post
The reason I posted this. I got about 25-30 older junk cues, all fairly cheap, some rather old, some new, I have only kept them to mess around with (sanding finish off, applying solarez, removing joint pins, etc.)

I put these all in a non-climate controlled storage(basically the equivalent of leaving them in the trunk of a car) about a year ago. I made some modifications to a little homemade lathe I had built and went down and picked them up last week. All the cues with a-joints had warped significantly, solid wood and fullsplice, hardly any movement at all.

Of course, this isn't definitive in any way or a knock on a-joints, and given the storage, the cheap quality cues, I doubt any correlation could be made, just thought it was interesting.

As always appreciate you guys taking time to answer questions here.
The problem with old cheap production cues is they were assembled when they were huge rods instead of seasoned tapered forearms and handles.
Then they turn them fast.
The handles are specially large when they assemble them.
Over time, they bow.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
Snooker Theory
AzB Silver Member
Snooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond repute
 
Snooker Theory's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,112
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 34
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: US
   
03-10-2020, 11:43 AM

So, is it safe to say if you are getting a cue that you aren't going to take care of(leave in the back of your trunk), are getting a cheaper production cue, or getting a cue from someone new to cue making(who might not know all the subtleties of a-joint construction), full splice might be a safer option?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
JoeyInCali
AzB Silver Member

JoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond reputeJoeyInCali has a reputation beyond repute
 
JoeyInCali's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 24,595
vCash: 4400
iTrader: 81 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: OC, California
   
03-10-2020, 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snooker Theory View Post
So, is it safe to say if you are getting a cue that you aren't going to take care of(leave in the back of your trunk), are getting a cheaper production cue, or getting a cue from someone new to cue making(who might not know all the subtleties of a-joint construction), full splice might be a safer option?
Full splice are made with huge squares then spliced.
Those old house cues are done that way.
I've chopped and converted quite a few of them.
They take years, if not more than a decade to stabilize.
The most stable cues are cored ones IMHO.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
Snooker Theory
AzB Silver Member
Snooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond reputeSnooker Theory has a reputation beyond repute
 
Snooker Theory's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,112
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 34
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: US
   
03-10-2020, 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
Full splice are made with huge squares then spliced.
Those old house cues are done that way.
I've chopped and converted quite a few of them.
They take years, if not more than a decade to stabilize.
The most stable cues are cored ones IMHO.
You have likely answered more questions for me than anyone on AZ, even my really stupid questions, thanks Joey for your input and time.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
Kim Bye
AzB Silver Member
Kim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond reputeKim Bye has a reputation beyond repute
 
Kim Bye's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,241
vCash: 500
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oslo
   
03-10-2020, 12:23 PM

A good A-joint construction demands more of the cuemaker in terms of seasoned wood, tight tolerances and as close to zero runout as possible.
If the connection is wood, phenolic or metal I think is lesss important assuming it`s done right.



Cold silence
has a tendency
to atrophy any
sense of compassion
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 5 1 23 Last »

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.