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"twenty years from now, you'll be looking for a wooden shaft like a hen's tooth"
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evergruven
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"twenty years from now, you'll be looking for a wooden shaft like a hen's tooth" - 03-16-2020, 04:14 PM

this may've been posted before, but I found this quote interesting
is predator just acting as if coz they're in biz?
or do y'all agree cf will (generally) supplant wood?

https://youtu.be/sDd6qOmjWvQ?t=39


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03-16-2020, 04:33 PM

The advantage between wood clubs and raquets and their modern equivelent is much broader than with cue shafts.

He is passionate for an engineer.


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03-16-2020, 04:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyco View Post
The advantage between wood clubs and raquets and their modern equivelent is much broader than with cue shafts.

He is passionate for an engineer.
I agree, jimmy
I've tried to play tennis with a wood racket
if paul's analogy held up
I would never have even started with a wood shaft


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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03-16-2020, 05:05 PM

Hm, maybe....but I’m not so sure either.

There are plenty of examples of new tech completely supplanting old tech. But there are some areas where that doesn’t really hold true and the two I’m thinking of share some things with pool.

First there is golf. While you don’t find many people still playing hickory shafts, steel iron shafts are still the standard on tour even though graphite shafts have been available for decades and have completely replaced steel shafts on drivers and fairways.

Second is musical instruments where wood has remained the standard due to its unique characteristics when it comes to sound production. This also correlated to vibration which influences feel and is a very real thing in pool cues as well.

I’m not saying it won’t hapoen, it well may, but I don’t see it as a definite. I could also see it completely replacing wood for break and jump cues, the two areas where feel is less important while wood shafts remain at least reasonable popular on playing cues.

Either way, it’ll be fun to watch the progression. I’m still playing wood, and standard deflection at that, but I’m intrigued by carbon and will likely buy one at some point.
  
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03-16-2020, 05:56 PM

Golf, tennis, fishing, ah dunno; crossbows(?) all benefit from the strength of carbon laminates. Pool, not nearly so much. Maple fills all the strength requirements quite well.

Can't argue with the manufacturing advantages is about all.
  
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03-17-2020, 06:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
this may've been posted before, but I found this quote interesting
is predator just acting as if coz they're in biz?
or do y'all agree cf will (generally) supplant wood?

https://youtu.be/sDd6qOmjWvQ?t=39

oh, I don't know.

Performance-wise I don't believe there's that much difference between a good maple shaft and a CF one, so it's not like tennis or golf. I'd say it's closer to the difference between modern violins and Stradivarius and Guameri models, which are still going strong 300 years later.

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03-17-2020, 06:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
oh, I don't know.

Performance-wise I don't believe there's that much difference between a good maple shaft and a CF one, so it's not like tennis or golf. I'd say it's closer to the difference between modern violins and Stradivarius and Guameri models, which are still going strong 300 years later.

Lou Figueroa
I tend to agree but the Title is 20 years from now. For the most part I think currently these are just the newest thing with lots of folks wanting to be on the cutting edge so to speak. Not much different than constantly buying new cues every 6 months, trying to find that magic wand that cures everything.

I don't do golf, tennis, or play violin, but I do a lot of fishing. The evolution of graphite rods in the past 30 years has been pretty amazing. There's so much control every blank is nearly 100% identical to the last. But to your point there's drawbacks to graphite and now we're seeing a slight comeback in bamboo, fiberglass, and blends of graphite & fiberglass.

For the most part I've gone with the belief that mother nature supplies the best raw materials. The trick is to discover it and develop the best techniques to utilize it.

But 20 years from now.... There's going to be a lot learned by then.
  
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03-17-2020, 07:07 AM

Perhaps but not after playing with the McDerrmott Defy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
this may've been posted before, but I found this quote interesting
is predator just acting as if coz they're in biz?
or do y'all agree cf will (generally) supplant wood?

https://youtu.be/sDd6qOmjWvQ?t=39


"Let your "Stick" do the talking!"

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03-17-2020, 07:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
this may've been posted before, but I found this quote interesting
is predator just acting as if coz they're in biz?
or do y'all agree cf will (generally) supplant wood?

https://youtu.be/sDd6qOmjWvQ?t=39
The analogies to other sports are flawed. As much as we like to focus on equipment in our game, the actual performance of one cue is very like another. Most of the differences we use to prefer one cue over another make no actual difference to the results on the table, and many of the differences that DO affect the results are actually not that different from one cue to the next. LD vs. standard deflection is a pretty big difference, but differences between LD shafts (CF and wood) are really pretty small.

CF won't fully supplant wood in our sport, because there will remain those that prefer a more classic traditional style, and also those who are unwilling to pay the premium for CF, which is an expensive material. Will wood become a niche market in the pool world? I give that one a pretty good chance, given the trends over the past year or two.


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03-17-2020, 07:21 AM

With the diversity of pool players budgets, cost will be the determining factor imo.



Quote:
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The analogies to other sports are flawed. As much as we like to focus on equipment in our game, the actual performance of one cue is very like another. Most of the differences we use to prefer one cue over another make no actual difference to the results on the table, and many of the differences that DO affect the results are actually not that different from one cue to the next. LD vs. standard deflection is a pretty big difference, but differences between LD shafts (CF and wood) are really pretty small.

CF won't fully supplant wood in our sport, because there will remain those that prefer a more classic traditional style, and also those who are unwilling to pay the premium for CF, which is an expensive material. Will wood become a niche market in the pool world? I give that one a pretty good chance, given the trends over the past year or two.


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03-17-2020, 07:22 AM

The improvement from using carbon in shafts is negligible. That being said, sourcing wood of good quality will become harder and harder (good maple). Most exotic woods will probably become illegal or at least prohibitively expensive. So at a point, most cues will be full carbon, butt and shaft. Prices will go down sharply.

I agree, in 20 years nobody will use wood anymore, apart from dinosaurs. Surely nobody who is in competitive pool will do so. I don't think it will stop there, I think tables will change to recycled or recyclable materials, surely they won't be made of exotic wood.

Pool cues cannot really be compared to musical instruments. It's a brute sport of poking balls around with a stick. Some people enjoy the sounds and the feel etc. but in the end, performance is what matters. I believe carbon performance will improve a lot over time, and is at present on par with wood, sometimes marginally better in the best products. When prices of wood increase many fold and carbon prices drop, the choice will be a no-brainer.

Last edited by Straightpool_99; 03-17-2020 at 07:30 AM.
  
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03-17-2020, 07:29 AM

When the Slate changes the price will drop on tables. They will find a material to use instead or will make one.


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The improvement from using carbon in shafts is negligible. That being said, sourcing wood of good quality will become harder and harder (good maple). Most exotic woods will probably become illegal or at least prohibitively expensive. So at a point, most cues will be full carbon, butt and shaft. Prices will go down sharply.

I agree, in 20 years nobody will use wood anymore, apart from dinosaurs. Surely nobody who is in competitive pool will do so. I don't think it will stop there, I think tables will change to recycled or recyclable materials, surely they won't be made of exotic wood.


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03-17-2020, 07:35 AM

20 years from now I'll still have the wooden shafts I have now, and I'll be 86.
  
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03-17-2020, 08:51 AM

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20 years from now I'll still have the wooden shafts I have now, and I'll be 86.
I'll be 78. Do you think I could get some weight then? lol


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wood and CF
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wood and CF - 03-17-2020, 08:56 AM

As the price of CF comes down and the price of quality wood goes up, I think CF will take over the bulk of the market. We used to seek wood with thirty rings per inch for shaft wood. Now we pay a high premium for twenty lines an inch and even that is hard to come by. Too lines per inch aren't the only thing making wood top quality for cue shafts.

The problem is veneers and factory ships. The veneer builders have factory ships sitting off the coast of the US and I assume Canada. They can pay a higher price for logs than cue builders can. Then the logs are hauled out to factory ships shaved into veneers like sharpening a pencil, and paneling is made without ever hauling the wood to another country. A log goes a long ways when it is just the outer layer of a piece of paneling.

Carbon fiber is consistent and there is little fear of warping if a shaft is good when you get it. CF can hit very well, good feel, and can be tuned to changing customer demands easier than wood.

I have mixed emotions about it but I think CF will take over the bulk of the market with mostly very cheap and very expensive cues made with wooden shafts. Of course, if demand falls off for shaft blanks suppliers may be less and less inclined to spend the time and money required to find good blank wood.

I don't have a lot of experience with CF, one shaft I hit with when I get a chance. I was biased, having hit with fiberglass and fiberglass wrapped wood I expected a hit I wouldn't like from a CF shaft. I like some feedback, not too much, not too little. Much to my surprise, that is what the shaft I tried gave me. Reluctantly I have jumped on the CF bandwagon. It can be made to play better than wood and feel better.

CF technology for cues is in it's infancy, it will get better. Wood technology is pretty much where it is going to stay. CF will have the bulk of market share for shafts in twenty years I do believe. Somebody that rolls out a one piece at a price halls can pay would make a nice score too I believe. Might even be good for pool if people could play off the wall with a quality cue, maybe for a small rental fee.

From the viewpoint of someone that generally dislikes change, CF is coming, CF may be here now. There were a lot of black shafts at the Scotty Townsend Memorial according to pictures.

Hu
  
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