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evergruven
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pool balls wider at the numbers- ? - 05-26-2020, 04:49 PM

had never considered this idea, so was naturally curious after looking at this video
https://youtu.be/rTjC6uvEPeI?t=462

emailed aramith, they replied:

In our lower end pool sets, there have been rare instances where the numbers are less worn off than the rest of the ball, because it is not possible to guaranty this as the thermal background and curing time are different. However this happens only when the balls are very small, totally out of specifications, typically around 56 or 56.5 mm instead of 57.15 mm (2.20'' instead of 2.25'') due to the wear with the table cloth and chalk. Furthermore the raising is very small, below 0.002'', in spite of the fact you might be able to feel it.
In our high end sets (from the Super Aramith Pro set) it doesn't happen, however it is not possible to guaranty at 100% once the balls are too worn off.
-------

interesting. wondering if anybody can relate to pat's experience then, and/or now?


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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05-26-2020, 04:55 PM

Good work, Mr E.


Pictures and descriptions of my pool ball collection and custom designs are gradually being uploaded to the AZB album area. If anyone would like to view these galleries as they grow, please click on the relevant link below.

Ball galleries: https://forums.azbilliards.com/album.php?albumid=2574

Custom designs: https://forums.azbilliards.com/album.php?albumid=2653

Best wishes,
RC.
  
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evergruven
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05-26-2020, 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubik's Cube View Post
Good work, Mr E.
hey rc, good chap! hope you're well pal..should have known your eyes would be keen to this thread ^_^

interesting reply from aramith, tho their response is more geared towards the current
I'm still interested in the evolution of the pool ball in the ball width respect
was pat's observation a common one back then? etc...


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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Apples vs oranges, old vs new
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Apples vs oranges, old vs new - 05-26-2020, 05:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
had never considered this idea, so was naturally curious after looking at this video
https://youtu.be/rTjC6uvEPeI?t=462

emailed aramith, they replied:

In our lower end pool sets, there have been rare instances where the numbers are less worn off than the rest of the ball, because it is not possible to guaranty this as the thermal background and curing time are different. However this happens only when the balls are very small, totally out of specifications, typically around 56 or 56.5 mm instead of 57.15 mm (2.20'' instead of 2.25'') due to the wear with the table cloth and chalk. Furthermore the raising is very small, below 0.002'', in spite of the fact you might be able to feel it.
In our high end sets (from the Super Aramith Pro set) it doesn't happen, however it is not possible to guaranty at 100% once the balls are too worn off.
-------

interesting. wondering if anybody can relate to pat's experience then, and/or now?
Date of video is about 2009. The balls in question, are Centennial Dart Balls, not Aramith. Aramith has only been producing the Centennial Balls for about five years or so. The Centennial Dart Balls are in fact still being used in many high-end billiard parlors. Dimensions across the numbers is not the only big difference between Centennial Dart Balls and the Aramith Centennial Balls. The width of the stripe varies as well between the sets of balls.
  
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evergruven
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05-26-2020, 05:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xradarx View Post
Date of video is about 2009. The balls in question, are Centennial Dart Balls, not Aramith. Aramith has only been producing the Centennial Balls for about five years or so. The Centennial Dart Balls are in fact still being used in many high-end billiard parlors. Dimensions across the numbers is not the only big difference between Centennial Dart Balls and the Aramith Centennial Balls. The width of the stripe varies as well between the sets of balls.
hi radar, thanks for the shout and info.
I don't know for sure, but that video looks to be significantly older than 2009
I also didn't mean to insinuate that I knew what kind of balls were on the table
I only emailed aramith because I know that *now* they're a big ball manufacturer
and figured any response they'd offer would be worth something, y'know?

so the balls in the vid are made by brunswick?
EDIT: aha, I see the telltale "dart" on the balls..I'm learning!

and you're saying that the ball width on those, pre-aramith, is indeed greater at the numbers?
thanks again for your reply


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"

Last edited by evergruven; 05-26-2020 at 05:51 PM.
  
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05-26-2020, 07:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
... so the balls in the vid are made by brunswick? ...
Brunswick has not made balls for a long, long time so far as I know. Centennials have been around since the 1960s or so. The were made by Hyatt at the start.

The balls were not intentionally made wider at the numbers. Hyatt did have manufacturing problems for a while for a new model. Here is a post about it in a previous thread about numbers bulging:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showt...48#post4186248

Balls wear down. The material in the eyes may be of a different hardness than the body of the ball. That's why the technically best set will be solid colors as on a snooker table. I have seen Centennials where the black outline areas were depressed.


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evergruven
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05-27-2020, 03:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The material in the eyes may be of a different hardness than the body of the ball.

thanks bob
why might this be?


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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05-27-2020, 04:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xradarx View Post
Date of video is about 2009. The balls in question, are Centennial Dart Balls, not Aramith. Aramith has only been producing the Centennial Balls for about five years or so. The Centennial Dart Balls are in fact still being used in many high-end billiard parlors. Dimensions across the numbers is not the only big difference between Centennial Dart Balls and the Aramith Centennial Balls. The width of the stripe varies as well between the sets of balls.
Aramith took over Centennial production in 1981. Story i heard was Aramith/Saluc under-bid Hyatt on purpose just to have the cachet of making the balls for Brunswick. Looks like it worked in the long run.

Last edited by garczar; 05-27-2020 at 09:41 AM.
  
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05-27-2020, 05:11 AM

I had bought a brand new set of super Aramith pros in 2009 or so. I measured each ball with starrett 2Ē-3Ē micrometers that can read to .0001 inch. I measured each ball in 3 places. At the number. At the stripe, and perpendicular to the stripe. I didnít really see any noticeable pattern across all the balls. I have a post here somewhere where I put the raw data. Iíll have to find it.

My plan was to remeasure all the balls years later. I didnít get to it yet. Ha ha.
  
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05-27-2020, 05:15 AM

The video was uploaded to YouTube in 2009. But it was made in 1992 or so I believe. I bought it as VHS sometime in the 90ís.

Funny when I bought it, I went to the table and tried that reverse 4 rail around the table shot. I couldnít come close. I never tried it again. Maybe 10 years later, I had gotten much better, and remembered the shot one day, and made it easily. Ha ha. Funny how pool works. You donít think of a shot for 10 years, and then all of a sudden you remember it exactly.
  
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05-27-2020, 08:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
thanks bob
why might this be?
The different colors on the ball are different batches of resin. In most modern cast phenolic higher-end balls, the color is solid except the white eye goes all the way through the ball. The numbers and decorations in black are also a separate batch of resin. In the past the numbers were milled out of the white eye and then filled with black resin. I'm not sure how Aramith does it now because the decorations have pretty sharp corners.

The fact that the colors (black/white/other) are solid material means that they will remain about the same appearance even as the diameter of the ball wears down in play. I have seen some very worn red circle cue balls where the red circle was a thin, uneven pink circle. That's probably too much service.


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Last edited by Bob Jewett; 05-27-2020 at 08:15 AM.
  
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05-27-2020, 09:33 AM

I had a set of Duramith's that you could feel the numbers on several of the balls. Ended up shipping them to Belgium ($$$$) to have them looked at. They ended up sending me a new set, no idea why they failed.

I bought them new, only used them at home. Cleaned with a Diamond ball cleaner using Aramith polish. Go figure.
  
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05-27-2020, 11:59 AM

why would anyone think that pool balls would not wear out? friction wears everything down at some point.
they may still be functional past that point and hard to tell the difference but they get worn down. just like your shoes.

a ball cleaner will hasten that process but is worth it as playing with clean balls is more fun.
  
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05-27-2020, 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocket View Post
I had a set of Duramith's that you could feel the numbers on several of the balls. Ended up shipping them to Belgium ($$$$) to have them looked at. They ended up sending me a new set, no idea why they failed.

I bought them new, only used them at home. Cleaned with a Diamond ball cleaner using Aramith polish. Go figure.
A complete guess... bad oven ventilation for a lower rack.

While not identical, I made a blue nob shifter out of epoxy once where I cured it 70%, spray painted on a heart, then cured it the last %30 in clear. I changed nothing about the temperature so what happened was around the edge of the paint it rose up and bubble a bit, and the center of the heart sunk a bit. Clearly DIY for me, but I'd suspect Aramith has good applicators, adjusts PIDs accordingly and has high quality degassing methods. So between my DIY and what they have, I'd suspect it was just slightly off oven ventilation.

FWIW, looking at various phenolic balls from various manufactures, it appears on all brands that the numbers are screened on in some fashion. Now whether it's a special dye or phenolic screened on I'm not sure, but it certainly looks screened to me. Although strangely the Aramith measle and Cyclop TV balls I'm holding look like they just added in the individual pieces before the final mold, but the numbered balls looked screened... strange.
  
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05-27-2020, 02:25 PM

For what itís worth, Iíve got a set of hardly used but 30 year old Aramith Crown Standards that have numbers that are raised to the touch.

Thought they might take a strange turn if struck right on the number, but the surface area is so small what are the chances.
  
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