This is why we can't have nice things

ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
yeah you are sandbagging

JC said:
That's what we used to do, remember?

How did that work out?

Can you give an example of people dumping? Many times in league play I'm tired and not in the mood to play due to a long day. Then I have a shot of whiskey and I really don't care much what happens next. Banging balls with friends is all it is to me at that point. I lose a LOT of games I wouldn't under different circumstances due to it but that's not dumping. And a huge percentage of my fargo scores comes from league. So I go to an afternoon tournament that I care about and destroy a couple players who are 20 points higher than me am I a sandbagger?
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Yeah, you are sandbagging. If you don't play your very best any time you are being rated you are sandbagging. I have to laugh thinking about how it would be if my old play was rated. I had one speed for dates and friends, another for local small time hustlers, yet another for road players. Rate all of that!

You do hit on a real issue, league is a lot different from even a weekly or monthly tournament. Somebody that plays league as a social event may be a whole nuther bear when they pay a hundred dollar entry fee.

Hu
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sjm said:
I (at least in theory, as I haven't competed for fifteen years)...... BLAH BLAH BLAH
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In other words, "I have no idea what I am talking about, but I will give you my utterly worthless opinion anyway"
 
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newcuer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Accusations of sandbagging does get out of hand. In APA, on a couple of nights where I have played well, I have been accused of sandbagging. Never was though..just played better that night.
 
DelawareDogs

DelawareDogs

The Double Deuce…
Silver Member
ShootingArts said:
Yeah, you are sandbagging. If you don't play your very best any time you are being rated you are sandbagging. I have to laugh thinking about how it would be if my old play was rated. I had one speed for dates and friends, another for local small time hustlers, yet another for road players. Rate all of that!

You do hit on a real issue, league is a lot different from even a weekly or monthly tournament. Somebody that plays league as a social event may be a whole nuther bear when they pay a hundred dollar entry fee.

Hu
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Yep, and on the other side of that coin, someone who dominates the league talent may be a whole nuther artist When the whole rail starts watching and the calcutta hits 5 figures.
 
alstl

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wouldn't be surprised but my experience in handicapped tournaments - 9 ball only - if there is a high level player in the event he outruns the handicap and wins.

For me I'd grind as hard as I can regardless of the payout because there is no guarantee you will cash in a big event.
 
sjm

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
garczar said:
Tuff to sneak-up on people anymore especially at DCC. They all know how just about everybody plays and in the action room those guys don't give a rodent's behind about Fargo.
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On the contrary, there are new faces every year in the action room and some of them are a little under the radar. The easiest way to get at least some info on an unknown opponent is to look up their Fargo, which takes about a minute.
 
couldnthinkof01

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Every sandbagger in the country should be on their way to
Griffs.
$1000 entry
580? and below.
This is what you've trained for!!!!
 
JolietJames

JolietJames

Boot Party Coordinator
Silver Member
This sort of thing will always happen unless it's a player known to be underrated by the TD.
The table size issue is worth addressing imo. I honestly feel that I, among others in my circle, play 20+ points better on BB than on 9' Diamonds -where most of our Fargos are derived. I'm not sure there is a way around it.
Good players should just play even and those who put in the time and effort get the rewards. I support the variable entry fees some tournaments utilize. However, I don't feel the tournaments should use both the handicapping of games, and the difference in entry fees.
 
J

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hang-the-9 said:
Players are gaming the Fargo ratings with dumping cheaper events to cash easier in the larger tournaments. I am beginning to think this whole idea of a fair handicapped tournament or league does not exist due to cheaters. Someone always finds a way no matter how you try to make handicapping fair. I may be down to playing in one tournament that is not handicapped and charity stuff.

Probably the only fair way to do handicaps is if you get assigned a handicap by the person that is running the tournament that knows how you play in relation to others there. Aside from that, those that cheat win, automated systems rely on good information, which many seem to be against giving.
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Welcome to the world candya55 players that are not good enough to man-up in the box.

Handicapping should be reserved for the handicapped.

I despise handicapping at ALL levels.

To me, a person don't need a handicap, they need to find out how to practice the right way and get better or accept the fact their gonna lose.

Handicapping is:

Foodstamps for POOL.....

Jeff
 
D

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JolietJames said:
This sort of thing will always happen unless it's a player known to be underrated by the TD.
The table size issue is worth addressing imo. I honestly feel that I, among others in my circle, play 20+ points better on BB than on 9' Diamonds -where most of our Fargos are derived. I'm not sure there is a way around it.
Good players should just play even and those who put in the time and effort get the rewards. I support the variable entry fees some tournaments utilize. However, I don't feel the tournaments should use both the handicapping of games, and the difference in entry fees.
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I've tried to point this out, but then everybody comes on and says, "Nuh Uh, miiiiiine is from 9 footers only man!"
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
seen that too!

DelawareDogs said:
Yep, and on the other side of that coin, someone who dominates the league talent may be a whole nuther artist When the whole rail starts watching and the calcutta hits 5 figures.
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I knew a local big dog that liked to stick his toes in the fire sometimes. Nothing like stepping up a couple levels in competition to make a big dog look like a toy poodle!

Hu
 
J

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JolietJames said:
This sort of thing will always happen unless it's a player known to be underrated by the TD.
The table size issue is worth addressing imo. I honestly feel that I, among others in my circle, play 20+ points better on BB than on 9' Diamonds -where most of our Fargos are derived. I'm not sure there is a way around it.
Good players should just play even and those who put in the time and effort get the rewards. I support the variable entry fees some tournaments utilize. However, I don't feel the tournaments should use both the handicapping of games, and the difference in entry fees.
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Of course they play better on a BB. It's because they spend almost all their time on toy tables so they can feel good about those "seemingly" hard outs, when in general, those outs are in reach for everyone but complete beginners.

I love it when a toy tabler wonders over to the big tables. Lol....it don't take many games or even just a few shots before you hear "lets move to the 7'er".... then, after a few games over there...lol...we hear, "I need soom weight". Thats usually when I tell them "nope, you need some practice or actually, a lot of practice and maybe even a coach".

Jeff
 
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KCRack'em

KCRack'em

I'm not argumentative!!!!
Silver Member
sjm said:
Unfortunately, sandbagging is profitable, and not just in pool. It's a huge issue in golf, too, where handicaps can easily be manipulated. Where there's a profit to be had, whether it's golf or pool, some will always choose to work the system/

I don't expect the problem to be eliminated in the imaginable future, but that said, I admire those organizations like Fargo to offer the best possible ratings they can and feel strongly they are adding an enormous amount of value to our sport.

Unless you are a pro whose livelihood is tied to tournament earnings, I think to opt out of all handicapped tournaments just because of this undisputed reality is an overreaction that will cause you to miss out on some good times and experiences.

By the way, pros work the system, too. At the IPT in 2006-07, each stage was round robin and there were countless opportunities to manipulate scores and matches to help a friend advance to the next stage.
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The round robin format is easy to game. I have devloped and run a small round robin tournament and we decided to use blind scoring. The scores are announced at the conclusion of the tournament. It worked for us.
 
DelawareDogs

DelawareDogs

The Double Deuce…
Silver Member
jrctherake said:
Welcome to the world candya55 players that are not good enough to man-up in the box.

Handicapping should be reserved for the handicapped.

I despise handicapping at ALL levels.

To me, a person don't need a handicap, they need to find out how to practice the right way and get better or accept the fact their gonna lose.

Handicapping is:

Foodstamps for POOL.....

Jeff
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BOOM!! Someone with the same thought process as myself.

If everyone turned on the Thursday game tonight, and Packers were giving the Eagles 3 points and a 5 yard rush bonus...... that Sh*t would be lame a-f.......

Just play, my brethren. You all enjoy the same sport/game. Some are better than others. Learn from that. FargoRate is a great way to judge a players performance, I just don't side with using a performance rating as a crutch.....
 
highkarate

highkarate

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JolietJames said:
The table size issue is worth addressing imo. I honestly feel that I, among others in my circle, play 20+ points better on BB than on 9' Diamonds -where most of our Fargos are derived. I'm not sure there is a way around it.
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Yeah but this is irrelevant because your fargo rate is derived from your win rate. So if everybody plays 20 points better on a bar box, your win rate against them should remain the same and it is factored into everybody's fargo rate in that way. I think it's typical that people play much better on bar tables, and that fact is already reflected in fargo rates accurately. Unless you mean that you and your friends play better on bar tables disproportionately to the way the rest of the world plays better on bar tables, which I don't think you mean.

Example: I'm a 720 playing a 740. I lose 90-100 in a race to 100 on the big table. Now we play again on the bar table. We both play much better on the bar table and run more racks. I still lose 90-100. Our fargo rates shouldn't change because of the equipment. It's still a 720 playing a 740, but it's just on easier equipment so we both perform better. That is my understanding of how different equipment is already factored into to your fargo.
 
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hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Or sometimes no gain. We use a Fargo-like system around here (and have for about 20 years) and early on two buddies figured out how to sandbag. They would just lose all their matches in the little weekly tournaments and then cash in the semi-annual money-added tournament. They showed up at the big event and when they went to sign up they were told the equivalent of, "No, you're not a 600, you're a 680 here. Do you still want to play?"
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If this was done, great, but I very very rarely see anyone running a tournament adjust things based on known ability vs what the "system" shows them as.

My son played in an event not long ago, bit money added thing for a local tour. People were in there as C players right before they swapped to Fargo and they were saying "I guess this is the last time I play as a C". Two of the "C" players he played ran out racks against him. They were regulars so the TD could have adjusted to known ability, but nothing is done.
 
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