Humble Pie at the Mosconi Cup
- Thread starter jaetee
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Most accurate post I have seen so far..
The Mosconi cup is to pool what the wrestling is to the fighting arts..
If it gets people watching and/or interested in pool then its working..
Over here in the UK we have a shoot out competition? Have you guys heard of it?
It's speed pool, played to a short shot clock in front of a baying drunk crowd but it is the only pool here in the UK shown live on tv.
(OK, yes, the blackball professional tour (IPA) is shown on BBC catch up tv)..
It's awful. Even more awful than the mosconi cup - but it gets viewers..
I don't even know what I am saying.. I'm supposed to be a purist..
For information and as an example of the shootout:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlL8Q9O3Pus
I disagree. There’s no finish line when matching up as there is in a tournament. Moreover, you get paid for every win when matching up, and not in a tournament. Furthermore, you can keep matching up till you’ve had enough, take as long a break as you need, then go back for more...again, not so in a tournament.
In conclusion, if Orcullo is the best, he can break them Taiwanese at his own pace.
Kapeche?
Damn you, friend! I thought I found a new source of speed pool videos! Alas, it is just English 8 ball with a shot clock or a match clock maybe, they didn’t seem very rushed. Not compared to the stutter-side-stepping Karl The Boyes when he won the speed pool championship. I can’t get enough of that ish.
I did hear the crowd getting in the game though and it’s something I’ll watch. Thanks for the link.
both wrong!
Jay, PVC Lou, you are both wrong, it is capisci! US spelling capiche.
You are both right and wrong in your discussion too. In theory, you can take gamblers at your own pace as PVC Lou says. In reality, if you are at a hall and action staring you in the face you take it or it will dry up in a hurry, I think Jay's viewpoint.
A friend of mine took on all comers hour after hour for several days. I don't know if his play was enhanced or not. However, when the time was right a canny old man that couldn't beat Bobby fresh reeled him in like a fish. Would have taken every penny Bobby won if I hadn't came in and decided a wife and two hungry kids trumped pool room etiquette and drug him out with a couple hundred left.
Nobody is as strong after ten or twelve hours nonstop play as they are for the first few hours. When your playmate is equally tired it works. If one person is tired mentally and physically and the other is fresh they are giving the fresh person a spot, intentionally or not.
Hu
Jay, PVC Lou, you are both wrong, it is capisci! US spelling capiche.
You are both right and wrong in your discussion too. In theory, you can take gamblers at your own pace as PVC Lou says. In reality, if you are at a hall and action staring you in the face you take it or it will dry up in a hurry, I think Jay's viewpoint.
A friend of mine took on all comers hour after hour for several days. I don't know if his play was enhanced or not. However, when the time was right a canny old man that couldn't beat Bobby fresh reeled him in like a fish. Would have taken every penny Bobby won if I hadn't came in and decided a wife and two hungry kids trumped pool room etiquette and drug him out with a couple hundred left.
Nobody is as strong after ten or twelve hours nonstop play as they are for the first few hours. When your playmate is equally tired it works. If one person is tired mentally and physically and the other is fresh they are giving the fresh person a spot, intentionally or not.
Hu
I would have to offer Jose Parica in his prime as the only exception that I've ever encountered. That's why Jose was, in all likelihood, the best "10 ahead" and "20 ahead" gambler our game has ever seen.
I certainly won't disagree!
I saw a youngish Parica in Greenway a few times. I certainly won't disagree with you! The little giant was the first of the Filipino invaders as far as I am concerned. No doubt not the very first but he is the first I remember making everybody sit up and take notice. He got respect from everybody.
Hu
I saw a youngish Parica in Greenway a few times. I certainly won't disagree with you! The little giant was the first of the Filipino invaders as far as I am concerned. No doubt not the very first but he is the first I remember making everybody sit up and take notice. He got respect from everybody.
Hu
I speak from experience Lou. I appreciate your point of view but have been witness to pool on all levels for several decades. In major tournaments there is money on the line in most every match. When you get down to the final eight on the Winner's side of the board, each match could be worth several thousand dollars.
The other side of the coin when matching up and gambling is that if you lose you can end up broke and out of action. Not everyone has a backer and even those that do can easily lose them if they take a couple of losses.
It would be nice if pool was really the way you portray it but unfortunately it's not. Matching up and making games is a process that can be exhausting and frustrating. You can't always have the luxury of taking a "break" as you call it. You may come back when you are rested and find out the games you want are no longer available and the ones that are may be too tough.
Even my friend Dennis does not feel like he could break the Taiwan champions at his own pace. He is doing good to beat two of them in a row! He may be one of the best money players alive but he isn't that much better (if at all) than several Taiwanese players. Any win against one of those guys is hard fought, just like his big money matches with T-Rex.
Dennis is doing his best to "break" good players at his own pace currently and has had some remarkable success along the way. You are correct about one thing. He has learned to pace himself and not get burned out from playing too much. This year he played a lot of big money pool (more than in any other year of his life) and did fairly well overall. It took a toll on his tournament game though and it was his worst year in over a decade for money winnings in tourneys.
I think he would like to change that in the upcoming year and one way is to lay off the all night action and be better prepared for the tournaments.
Holy lord, beat around the bush much ? Either Orcullo is "the best money player in the world," or he isn't. This "outnumbered" concept has nothing to do with anything. Loooking forward to your next ring around the rosie. 
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Holy lord, beat around the bush much ? Either Orcullo is "the best money player in the world," or he isn't. This "outnumbered" concept has nothing to do with anything. Loooking forward to your next ring around the rosie.
Obviously you don’t know who your talking to .. he’s forgotten more about pool then you’ll ever know. Mentally your going to get worn down playing one monster after another. They are going to be fresh and ready to play that one match against you while you’ve been pushing hard for hours against 1 great player after another . It’s not a hard concept to understand if you’ve been around the game or generally any sports for long.
I can understand why you might be skeptical of Jay. Yes, in pool you play one opponent only. And it's true that you could decline to play an action match if you weren't feeling 100% refreshed and rested.
Yet there is more to the story. Most of the top players are always in action. Kaci, Filler, Aranas, Gomez, Chua, on and on it goes. They match up when they have tournament matches the next day. They match up in between matching up. For example, Dennis was playing money games through the night immediately prior to his match with Chohan.
If you or I were playing Chohan a race to 40 for 50K, would we stay up gambling all night the night before? Not likely. But here's the catch. If you're the type of person to play it safe and try to only get in the ring when you're feeling your best, you probably won't keep up with these guys who are mixing it up full time.
They're afraid if they start turning down games they are getting soft. They don't want others to get more volume in then them. They want to stay loose. There is no opponent in the world more threatening to them then themselves, of what would happen if they started getting tight, scared, and nitty. So they go all in and rarely turn down a game. They are more afraid of getting weak then they are of booking a loser.
Many times in pool a strength can turn into a weakness. I've known many players that shoot really straight, to where it can be devastating. But if they get out of line and start shooting flyers, it can cost them sets and matches and make them easier to beat. What should be a strength becomes a weakness. Sometimes perfectionists can be motivated to work and practice really hard, but other times it stops them from taking real risks and they tighten up too much under pressure. Similarly, these action guys, in their determination to take on all comers and not back down or stop until they reach the top, can also undermine their performance at times.
So to express what Jay is saying another way, the strategy most of today's top players use to get to the top is to never back down from a fight. It makes them tough, it keeps them loose, and it forces them to perform because they are all in and there is no other option but to become better. But while this strategy can be very effective at making them a monster, when big money matches come out there is a time and place to be a little selective. Look at Filler/SVB being a little less impulsive about making a huge game. You all are right that this could be avoided in theory, but it equally makes sense why players that haven't permitted themselves to calm down a bit and learn this balance are definitely at risk of getting beat down by groups of top players.
Yet there is more to the story. Most of the top players are always in action. Kaci, Filler, Aranas, Gomez, Chua, on and on it goes. They match up when they have tournament matches the next day. They match up in between matching up. For example, Dennis was playing money games through the night immediately prior to his match with Chohan.
If you or I were playing Chohan a race to 40 for 50K, would we stay up gambling all night the night before? Not likely. But here's the catch. If you're the type of person to play it safe and try to only get in the ring when you're feeling your best, you probably won't keep up with these guys who are mixing it up full time.
They're afraid if they start turning down games they are getting soft. They don't want others to get more volume in then them. They want to stay loose. There is no opponent in the world more threatening to them then themselves, of what would happen if they started getting tight, scared, and nitty. So they go all in and rarely turn down a game. They are more afraid of getting weak then they are of booking a loser.
Many times in pool a strength can turn into a weakness. I've known many players that shoot really straight, to where it can be devastating. But if they get out of line and start shooting flyers, it can cost them sets and matches and make them easier to beat. What should be a strength becomes a weakness. Sometimes perfectionists can be motivated to work and practice really hard, but other times it stops them from taking real risks and they tighten up too much under pressure. Similarly, these action guys, in their determination to take on all comers and not back down or stop until they reach the top, can also undermine their performance at times.
So to express what Jay is saying another way, the strategy most of today's top players use to get to the top is to never back down from a fight. It makes them tough, it keeps them loose, and it forces them to perform because they are all in and there is no other option but to become better. But while this strategy can be very effective at making them a monster, when big money matches come out there is a time and place to be a little selective. Look at Filler/SVB being a little less impulsive about making a huge game. You all are right that this could be avoided in theory, but it equally makes sense why players that haven't permitted themselves to calm down a bit and learn this balance are definitely at risk of getting beat down by groups of top players.
Dennis demonstrated this recently
Dennis was in a three day match recently. After a grueling first day he immediately went into an all nighter for $5000 I believe. A lot less money but still more than you want to lose and the game was close to fair so it was a battle! The next day Dennis was out of gas and lost ground in his big match. He got some rest that evening and closed things out in the big match the next day. I wouldn't have taken the smaller match on until after finishing the main match but I am not Dennis. He thought he could win both match-ups and he did.
What Lou is ignoring is that Dennis is the one that said he can't win in Taiwan. Others can think one tough match after another doesn't wear you down. They can think it does. It really doesn't matter what any of us thinks when it comes to Dennis's play. He thinks he can't win in that situation giving up home field advantage and facing one strong player after another.
It has been my experience, in my own play and watching other people play, we generally perform to our own expectations. If we expect to win, we find a way to win. If we expect to lose we can blow big leads. Dennis isn't going to Taiwan and winning unless his mindset changes. It sounds kinda funny but a young Dennis might have won under the same conditions he won't buck now. Being younger he would have more endurance but also being younger he wouldn't have the same understanding of the meat grinder he would be facing. Funny as it seems, ignorance is sometimes an advantage!
Hu
Dennis was in a three day match recently. After a grueling first day he immediately went into an all nighter for $5000 I believe. A lot less money but still more than you want to lose and the game was close to fair so it was a battle! The next day Dennis was out of gas and lost ground in his big match. He got some rest that evening and closed things out in the big match the next day. I wouldn't have taken the smaller match on until after finishing the main match but I am not Dennis. He thought he could win both match-ups and he did.
What Lou is ignoring is that Dennis is the one that said he can't win in Taiwan. Others can think one tough match after another doesn't wear you down. They can think it does. It really doesn't matter what any of us thinks when it comes to Dennis's play. He thinks he can't win in that situation giving up home field advantage and facing one strong player after another.
It has been my experience, in my own play and watching other people play, we generally perform to our own expectations. If we expect to win, we find a way to win. If we expect to lose we can blow big leads. Dennis isn't going to Taiwan and winning unless his mindset changes. It sounds kinda funny but a young Dennis might have won under the same conditions he won't buck now. Being younger he would have more endurance but also being younger he wouldn't have the same understanding of the meat grinder he would be facing. Funny as it seems, ignorance is sometimes an advantage!
Hu
Say you are slightly better than all of your opponents. You continually have to play your A game while they are rested and taking turns. Your odds of playing the fifth guy decreased just because of him being rested while you played four others before.
I remember when Corey and Gabe tag teamed dippy dave in vegas. Races to 8 one pocket. It wasn't necessarily a bad game for dippy but he didn't win a single set while I was there. He played all night long. When Corey played, gabe was somewhere else and corey was somewhere else when gabe played. Dippy plays 24 hours straight vs guys taking 8 hour breaks is tough for anyone to fade even if it was even on paper.
OK, but maybe people who won't stop playing--ever--so long as there is a willing opponent just aren't supposed to win.
They must have a REALLY tough time with a mountain of crab legs at the seafood buffet.
I’ll make a last remark :
If I was the best player somewhere, I’d be happy to be, so-called, outnumbered by people lining up to play me. How could I complain about having action for life? Sure, I’d lose some, but I’d win more.
Anyway, you guys all made fine points (that I think are beside the point), but you guys are definitely smarter than me. I’ll back down
If I was the best player somewhere, I’d be happy to be, so-called, outnumbered by people lining up to play me. How could I complain about having action for life? Sure, I’d lose some, but I’d win more.
Anyway, you guys all made fine points (that I think are beside the point), but you guys are definitely smarter than me. I’ll back down
I think I came out on top!
A place had a wednesday night special, all you could eat crab legs and shrimp for thirty dollars. This was almost twenty years ago and I wasn't too sure I could come out on that deal. What the hay, skipped lunch and went there for an early supper. If there were any sides I don't remember but nice sized shrimp, big crab legs, and rendered butter, I think I turned a profit considering what the seafood would have cost me by the pound raw. Pretty sure it was the most I have ate at one sitting. The waitress didn't play games and kept the food coming. The lady got a very nice tip!
You have done me wrong! All I can think about now is seafood. Char broiled or soft fried oysters, shrimp boiled or fried, Des Allamondes catfish, maybe a few pounds of crawfish for an appetizer ...
Hu
A place had a wednesday night special, all you could eat crab legs and shrimp for thirty dollars. This was almost twenty years ago and I wasn't too sure I could come out on that deal. What the hay, skipped lunch and went there for an early supper. If there were any sides I don't remember but nice sized shrimp, big crab legs, and rendered butter, I think I turned a profit considering what the seafood would have cost me by the pound raw. Pretty sure it was the most I have ate at one sitting. The waitress didn't play games and kept the food coming. The lady got a very nice tip!
You have done me wrong! All I can think about now is seafood. Char broiled or soft fried oysters, shrimp boiled or fried, Des Allamondes catfish, maybe a few pounds of crawfish for an appetizer ...
Hu
Mike,
Any chance you could either resize your graphic, or remove it? You're killing all these old guy eyes with the text on every other post getting super tiny....
The funny thing Hu is the reality of the situation. None of the top Filipino players want to travel to Taiwan and get their ass handed to them after taking on Murderer's Row over there. Yet the top Taiwanese players will often come to Manila to get tested by the Pinoy players. After they skirmish with each other in Taiwan for weeks at a time they want to see how they match up with the other top players in their neighborhood (The Philippines is an hour and half flight away). They know the top Pinoy players will play them even, and the other good players will play them with a few games on the wire (typically they play long races, like to 23 or 25).
One thing the Taiwan champions and top players from everywhere else (Europe, USA, Australia, etc.) already know is that if they come to the Philippines they will not have any problem finding games. It's probably the easiest place on the planet for a good to great pool player to get in action. That's why just about everybody spends time there eventually. John Morra was a good player who spent six months in the Philippines seven or eight years ago and came back a much better player. He went there at a low A level and came back a world class player. Just one example of why so many players use the Philippines as a training and testing ground for their game. Darren Appletion and Mika are two more who paid their dues in the Philippines and came back stronger than ever.
The Philippines remains the best proving ground for pool greatness there is. If you can go over there and win the money then you are a serious player to be reckoned with. You can count the guys on one hand who have accomplished this. The ones I can think of from the USA include Nick Varner, Rodney Morris and Shane. That's about it. We have already seen what the Filipino players do over here. The USA is a feast for them! They can pick off the tournaments, plus get action from the good players scattered all across this big country. They don't really care who you are or what your reputation is, they want to make a game with you. Look what Gomez just did to Evan Lunda, a very good One Pocket player. He saw what he was up against and elevated his game to where it needed to be to get the cash.
I could go on but I think you get the point. Why should they go to Taiwan when Taiwan will come to them? Why shouldn't they go to the USA where opportunity knocks around every corner. I'd say it's been working pretty well for them for the last thirty odd years.
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home field advantage
Right you are Jay. In tough action I always wanted home field advantage. On the other hand, I would take easy pickings anywhere I found them! The Filipino players are doing the same thing on a larger scale. They don't have to make much more than expenses here to be sending a nice chunk back home.
Back in the seventies and eighties I could walk into a typical pool hall and be pretty sure I was the best in the place even giving up homefield advantage. Rarely was I wrong. On the other hand, I didn't go chasing Buddy Hall on his home turf!
Hu
The funny thing Hu is the reality of the situation. None of the top Filipino players want to travel to Taiwan and get their ass handed to them after taking on Murderer's Row over there. Yet the top Taiwanese players will often come to Manila to get tested by the Pinoy players. After they skirmish with each other in Taiwan for weeks at a time they want to see how they match up with the other top players in their neighborhood (The Philippines is an hour and half flight away). They know the top Pinoy players will play them even, and the other good players will play them with a few games on the wire (typically they play long races, like to 23 or 25).
One thing the Taiwan champions and top players from everywhere else (Europe, USA, Australia, etc.) already know is that if they come to the Philippines they will not have any problem finding games. It's probably the easiest place on the planet for a good to great pool player to get in action. That's why just about everybody spends time there eventually. John Morra was a good player who spent six months in the Philippines seven or eight years ago and came back a much better player. He went there at a low A level and came back a world class player. Just one example of why so many players use the Philippines as a training and testing ground for their game. Darren Appletion and Mika are two more who paid their dues in the Philippines and came back stronger than ever.
The Philippines remains the best proving ground for pool greatness there is. If you can go over there and win the money then you are a serious player to be reckoned with. You can count the guys on one hand who have accomplished this. The ones I can think of from the USA include Nick Varner, Rodney Morris and Shane. That's about it. We have already seen what the Filipino players do over here. The USA is a feast for them! They can pick off the tournaments, plus get action from the good players scattered all across this big country. They don't really care who you are or what your reputation is, they want to make a game with you. Look what Gomez just did to Evan Lunda, a very good One Pocket player. He saw what he was up against and elevated his game to where it needed to be to get the cash.
I could go on but I think you get the point. Why should they go to Taiwan when Taiwan will come to them? Why shouldn't they go to the USA where opportunity knocks around every corner. I'd say it's been working pretty well for them for the last thirty odd years.
Right you are Jay. In tough action I always wanted home field advantage. On the other hand, I would take easy pickings anywhere I found them! The Filipino players are doing the same thing on a larger scale. They don't have to make much more than expenses here to be sending a nice chunk back home.
Back in the seventies and eighties I could walk into a typical pool hall and be pretty sure I was the best in the place even giving up homefield advantage. Rarely was I wrong. On the other hand, I didn't go chasing Buddy Hall on his home turf!
Hu