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01-12-2018, 03:24 PM

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Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
I'm not talking general knowledge, I'm talking the people who come here and spew tons and tons of figures and mumbo-jumbo on every subject from soup to nuts and expect everyone to take them at face value.

We have tons and tons of global warming experts on here, but I've never seen any of them on TV debating the other experts.
Sorry dude, but I link to data routinely ... except when I've dug up the data on multiple occasions only to have the science deniers ignore actual science.


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Old
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01-12-2018, 03:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Sofla View Post

As is your claim that there is no sea level rise at all going on now.
Fake news ... fake science ... fake history ... fake definitions ... and now fake quotes I see.

Of course the sea level has rose, and it has fallen, and it has mose much faster in the past than it has recently.

This is what actual science teaches.

LEARN SOFLA LEARN:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise


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  (#63)
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01-12-2018, 03:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
I'm not talking general knowledge, I'm talking the people who come here and spew tons and tons of figures and mumbo-jumbo on every subject from soup to nuts and expect everyone to take them at face value.

We have tons and tons of global warming experts on here, but I've never seen any of them on TV debating the other experts.
Many of the experts cannot present things simply enough or in a punchy enough way to fit the limitations and entertainment value needs of a short tv segment. Many of the more glib talkers who have good presentation skills and can simplify things to a few short punchy points don't know what they're talking about.

So mostly, what can be seen on television are amateurs, non-scientists or certainly non-specialists, sparring with shorthanded talking points. Bill Nye, 'the science guy,' isn't a scientist, and instead is a mechanical engineering degreed Cornell grad who settled into a science explainer role on tv. (Meaning no disrespect to engineers, but....)

If you're willing to watch some hours at a time, Youtube has many offerings of actual experts going at each other in some depth on this subject.

I don't expect anyone to take anything I say at face value. It is my opinion, and is my putting down a marker of what I think (or showing a source I think is accurate). Maybe I'm/my source is wrong, which can then be shown by someone else if they can. On technical matters, most don't have enough expertise to know themselves, so they must find some source who might.

In other words, it's just offering a start of a discussion to engage in. Nobody can claim papal-style infallibility, so the free marketplace of ideas, pushing it back and forth, is what it ends up as. Or more usually here, some common names called, and snark.


The point of modern propaganda isn't only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.

-- Garry Kasparov

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01-12-2018, 03:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Sofla View Post
Many of the experts cannot present things simply enough or in a punchy enough way to fit the limitations and entertainment value needs of a short tv segment. Many of the more glib talkers who have good presentation skills and can simplify things to a few short punchy points don't know what they're talking about.

So mostly, what can be seen on television are amateurs, non-scientists or certainly non-specialists, sparring with shorthanded talking points. Bill Nye, 'the science guy,' isn't a scientist, and instead is a mechanical engineering degreed Cornell grad who settled into a science explainer role on tv. (Meaning no disrespect to engineers, but....)

If you're willing to watch some hours at a time, Youtube has many offerings of actual experts going at each other in some depth on this subject.

I don't expect anyone to take anything I say at face value. It is my opinion, and is my putting down a marker of what I think (or showing a source I think is accurate). Maybe I'm/my source is wrong, which can then be shown by someone else if they can. On technical matters, most don't have enough expertise to know themselves, so they must find some source who might.

In other words, it's just offering a start of a discussion to engage in. Nobody can claim papal-style infallibility, so the free marketplace of ideas, pushing it back and forth, is what it ends up as. Or more usually here, some common names called, and snark.
The polar bears are my principal concern. I am up at night thinking about them.
  
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01-12-2018, 04:00 PM

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Originally Posted by overlord View Post
The polar bears are my principal concern. I am up at night thinking about them.
Yes, I'm sure you are.

But before anyone can decide whether to be concerned or not, what about finding out the facts of their situation-- are their numbers growing, or declining? Yes.

There are a handful of major populations in different areas. Some are growing in numbers, and others declining. Both are true, but then the question is the net situation for all the populations.

How people argue this is an interesting case example of the problems with the discourse. Because many point at the one population known to be increasing, ignore the other populations' declines, and say the whole concern is based on a lie. But that is a bad argument, and some who use it know it is false. Others that repeat it do not know it is false.

It's why we can't have nice things, er, agree on facts. If we can't agree on what's what as a start, then we lack agreed upon facts required to make a decision.

Just knowing if they are endangered or on the brink of extinction (they aren't, yet) doesn't mean we have to do anything about it. But figuring out what the best evidence says should be done first, prior to making decisions (even if the decision is to do nothing).


The point of modern propaganda isn't only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.

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01-12-2018, 04:09 PM

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Originally Posted by LWW View Post
Dear God in Heaven I think you are the guy that argues with the pigeons in the park.

According to NOAA they are 6.855606061 miles deep. I will hang my hat on 7 miles being a close enough remembrance without googling it the first time.

By your tortured logic Lake Superior is not even ankle deep because I've stood in it barely covering my toes.

I seriously am tiring of correcting and tutoring someone who refuses to think, much less learn.
I am not quibbling over 6.85 vs. 7. Close enough.

But your 'they are 6.85....' is the problem. That is not the oceans' average depth. Not even close. That is the very deepest part of the Mariana Trench, and only a small part of even that area.

So you seem to be saying the average ocean depth is the same as its most extreme depth. ('They are' meaning the oceans are.)

And claim NOAA says so?

Oh dear. Maybe if you keep digging, you can get the oceans to average a seven mile depth.

Meanwhile, NOAA actually says the average depth is 2.3 miles. Here on their website.


The point of modern propaganda isn't only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.

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01-12-2018, 08:51 PM

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Originally Posted by DaveK View Post
In my day electrical and engineering physics had greater math loads compared to the
other disciplines, all were required classes. We had classes in basic calculus,
numeric methods, linear math, statistics, vector calculus (what I remember, that was
a few years back now ). In 4 years never had a semester without a math class.


Dave

In Electrical it was Feedback Analysis and their dependence on integral
equations. Laplace Transforms transformed the equations into algebra
equations.

We also had analog computers. The most advanced we had was a Trace
TR-48. You could wire a board on the side then slide it on the front of
the analog computer. With 48 integrators, you could attack very sophisticated
problems. Today, they simulate analog computers with digital representations.

http://www.earlycomputers.com/cgi-bi...n.cgi?20050803

http://www.analogmuseum.org/library/eai_tr20_tr48.pdf

I taught Feedback lab.



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01-12-2018, 08:59 PM

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Originally Posted by DaveK View Post
Like LWW and Slide Rule ? Or like Sofla ?

I've never seen them on TV either .... of course I have no idea what they look like nor do I know their names

Dave

Take a peek at my profile photo.When I was young I got by
on my looks.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/profil...editprofilepic

Photo cropped from me and my 3 younger brothers. It was taken
at my youngest brothers sons wedding.

TV is overblown. Few speaking there are expert at anything other
than faking emotion.

I was on TV once to provide information about the non smoking laws.
The manager at Glass City Billiards asked me to represent him.

The first question the talking heads asked was do you smoke.
No. Never have.

My name is of course Al.



I am 3% Neanderthal and 97% Conservative.

Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France
Richard Feynman,The Feynman Lectures on Physics
Roger Penrose, The Road To Reality & The Emperor's New Mind
Karl Popper, An Open Society and Its Enemies, & The Logic of Scientific Discovery
Norman Davies, Europe: A History



E Pluribus Awesome!

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01-12-2018, 09:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofla View Post
I am not quibbling over 6.85 vs. 7. Close enough.

But your 'they are 6.85....' is the problem. That is not the oceans' average depth. Not even close. That is the very deepest part of the Mariana Trench, and only a small part of even that area.

So you seem to be saying the average ocean depth is the same as its most extreme depth. ('They are' meaning the oceans are.)

And claim NOAA says so?

Oh dear. Maybe if you keep digging, you can get the oceans to average a seven mile depth.

Meanwhile, NOAA actually says the average depth is 2.3 miles. Here on their website.
You are the only one who uses the average depth in this conversation.

Look ... there’s a new flock of pigeons.


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01-13-2018, 08:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide Rule View Post

In Electrical it was Feedback Analysis and their dependence on integral
equations. Laplace Transforms transformed the equations into algebra
equations.

We also had analog computers. The most advanced we had was a Trace
TR-48. You could wire a board on the side then slide it on the front of
the analog computer. With 48 integrators, you could attack very sophisticated
problems. Today, they simulate analog computers with digital representations.

http://www.earlycomputers.com/cgi-bi...n.cgi?20050803

http://www.analogmuseum.org/library/eai_tr20_tr48.pdf

I taught Feedback lab.


Transforms In my day we used an IBM 360 for our main computer work and a PDP-8 in the lab ... and everyone had a sliderule

Dave <-- still has several sliderules, Hughs-Owens Sun Hemmis


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Overlord you can sleep soundly.
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Overlord you can sleep soundly. - 01-13-2018, 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlord View Post
The polar bears are my principal concern. I am up at night thinking about them.
Polar Bear Numbers Still On The Rise, Despite Global Warming


ANDREW FOLLETT

Energy and Science Reporter
1:17 PM 02/16/2017

Polar bear populations are still growing despite global warming, according to new research.

The new population estimates from the 2016 Scientific Working Group are somewhere between 22,633 to 32,257 bears, which is a net increase from the 2015 number of 22,000 to 31,000. The current population numbers are a sharp increase from 2005’s, which stated only 20,000 to 25,000 bears remained — those numbers were a major increase from estimates that only 8,000 to 10,000 bears remained in the late 1960s....

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/16/po...lobal-warming/


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Slide Rule
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01-13-2018, 11:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveK View Post
Transforms In my day we used an IBM 360 for our main
computer work and a PDP-8 in the lab ... and everyone had a sliderule


Dave <-- still has several sliderules, Hughs-Owens Sun Hemmis

My thesis was on hearing perception. Wrote a program to control a white noise
generator producing patterns of three bursts. The volume was decreased to the level
near perception. The study involved when the live patient perceived them correctly
or perceived them as inverted. Took EEG of the patients and sampled the signals
and processed them. The party interested in the results thought there was an
inversion similar to sight inversions of letters.

The input signal was a pulse train generated by an A to D Multiplier. I could adjust
the length of the pulses and the intervals between via software.

About 4000 lines of code on a PDP-8S. S for slow. We all had slide rules too.
Someone stole my K&E log log duplex vector between my last course and
graduation. He needed it more than I. Of course slide rules are dated, as am I.

I also have several slide rules. Gave my brother Bruce a 24" K&E. He works for
a software company in Cleveland. I also found a copy of Microsoft DOS, the manual,
at a library sale. Its about 8" thick and sits on a bookshelf in his office.

First computer class was on a 1420 I think. Punched Hollerith cards were the input.



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01-14-2018, 01:54 AM

Sorry, but as Saint Albert of Green Acres didst prophesy all Arctic ice has melted and the polar bears have drowned.


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