MIke Sigel's perfect stroke

Bob Jewett · Aug 12, 2020

3kushn said:
Harry Sims taught an UpStroke or rising tip, for some shots particularly diagrammed is one example. ...

The current world 3C champion believes that a single stroke is sufficient. I agree with him.

Of course, if you think of a variety of strokes, and that helps you prepare for various shots as needed, it may work for you, but it doesn't correspond well with reality.

There are many strange beliefs among players. I know one who even thinks you can draw the ball by hitting it in the center. He addresses the ball at the center but of course he doesn't hit it there.

The test, of course, is to present a precise diagram of a shot that requires a special stroking technique. (Other than when the shot is somehow hampered.) I think no such shot exists.

FranCrimi · Aug 12, 2020

3kushn said:
Harry Sims taught an UpStroke or rising tip, for some shots particularly diagrammed is one example. The stroke is like a swipe from center to left or right except the tip is on the rise b4 striking the CB. BTW Harry learned it from Gilbert.

How its accomplished is to move your grip way back on the cue which will naturally create a rocking motion.

Fran - Here's a Disclaimer. LOL
I showed this shot to Robert Byrne telling him a rising tip helps get out of the kiss. He said Bull Sh** and proceeded to shoot the shot by feathering the OB, moving it about 1.5 inches. That's all you have to do he said.

White is the CB

https://pad.chalkysticks.com/174c2.png

LOL! Love the disclaimer. Geez...that's impressive. I don't know if I could do that in 10 tries. That's almost like Willie Mosconi telling me the secret to the game is not to miss.

evergruven · Aug 12, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
There are many strange beliefs among players. I know one who even thinks you can draw the ball by hitting it in the center. He addresses the ball at the center but of course he doesn't hit it there.

bob, can't it be done at an angle?

Patrick Johnson · Aug 12, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
There are many strange beliefs among players. I know one who even thinks you can draw the ball by hitting it in the center. He addresses the ball at the center but of course he doesn't hit it there.

evergruven said:
bob, can't it be done at an angle?

You're thinking of hitting on the equator, which is only "center" with a level cue. "Center" in this context means "3D center", the center of the 3D ball. If you point your stick at that you'll never get any draw.

pj
chgo

3kushn · Aug 12, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
The current world 3C champion believes that a single stroke is sufficient. I agree with him.

The test, of course, is to present a precise diagram of a shot that requires a special stroking technique. (Other than when the shot is somehow hampered.) I think no such shot exists.

The shot I diagrammed is fairly precise. You know the kiss potential when the OB is closer to the rail than the CB and going LSL.

Of course, as Bob demonstrated to me, the special stroke isn't necessary and basically BS. I'm not arguing, but the thing is, at least for me, I can get out of the kiss with a thicker hit.

Does that prove anything? Probably not.... Well it might prove that confidence at the table plays a decent role for success, even though some BS technique has been proven out or not.

Its unfortunate (my constant complaint) that videos of games nearly never allow us to see the stroke. Harry told me he wished he saw more of Sang Lee, since he, in his opinion, use a rising tip for a high percentage of shots.

That doesn't prove anything either. Can't even prove its true.

evergruven · Aug 12, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
You're thinking of hitting on the equator, which is only "center" with a level cue. "Center" in this context means "3D center", the center of the 3D ball. If you point your stick at that you'll never get any draw.

pj
chgo

trippy..and not just that you read my mind ^_^
thanks pat~

FranCrimi · Aug 12, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
The current world 3C champion believes that a single stroke is sufficient. I agree with him.

Of course, if you think of a variety of strokes, and that helps you prepare for various shots as needed, it may work for you, but it doesn't correspond well with reality.

There are many strange beliefs among players. I know one who even thinks you can draw the ball by hitting it in the center. He addresses the ball at the center but of course he doesn't hit it there.

The test, of course, is to present a precise diagram of a shot that requires a special stroking technique. (Other than when the shot is somehow hampered.) I think no such shot exists.

I like it when players think out of the box. That's when new and interesting things get discovered. I doubt that we know all there is to know about the mechanics of the game.

Bob Jewett · Aug 12, 2020

FranCrimi said:
I like it when players think out of the box. That's when new and interesting things get discovered. I doubt that we know all there is to know about the mechanics of the game.

I think we know very little about the mechanics (kinesiology) of the game and it would be great if some research team took up the task.

We know quite a bit about the physics of the game but there is still much to learn.

FranCrimi · Aug 13, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
I think we know very little about the mechanics (kinesiology) of the game and it would be great if some research team took up the task.

We know quite a bit about the physics of the game but there is still much to learn.

I've learned over the years that when somebody says something that doesn't quite make sense, they may be on the verge of discovering something that does. But it's important to discern between people who just babble nonsense and those who really are on a path to discovery.

Yes, physics is science, but when it comes to mechanics, sometimes a player is feeling something they can't quite describe yet.

BilliardsAbout · Aug 13, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
The current world 3C champion believes that a single stroke is sufficient. I agree with him.

Of course, if you think of a variety of strokes, and that helps you prepare for various shots as needed, it may work for you, but it doesn't correspond well with reality.

There are many strange beliefs among players. I know one who even thinks you can draw the ball by hitting it in the center. He addresses the ball at the center but of course he doesn't hit it there.

The test, of course, is to present a precise diagram of a shot that requires a special stroking technique. (Other than when the shot is somehow hampered.) I think no such shot exists.

When did pool become the sole stick-and-ball sport where varied strokes aren't helpful for odd occasions?

Yes, any given shot can be made with an orthodox stroke, but I'm not one to tell a student who's struggled with a given shot for years to "just keep practicing," where we can fix the shot in under a minute's time by using an unorthodox technique.

I agree a champion may use one stroke/type of stroke.

Patrick Johnson · Aug 13, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
I'm not one to tell a student who's struggled with a given shot for years to "just keep practicing," where we can fix the shot in under a minute's time by using an unorthodox technique.

How about an example of an unorthodox technique that fixed a student's shot?

pj
chgo

FranCrimi · Aug 13, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
How about an example of an unorthodox technique that fixed a student's shot?

pj
chgo

I will give you a couple of examples that have immediate effects --- after Matt responds.

BilliardsAbout · Aug 14, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
How about an example of an unorthodox technique that fixed a student's shot?

pj
chgo

How about you, Bob or Fran answer my question from the prior post:

"When did pool become the sole stick-and-ball sport where varied strokes aren't helpful for odd occasions?"

Patrick Johnson · Aug 14, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
I'm not one to tell a student who's struggled with a given shot for years to "just keep practicing," where we can fix the shot in under a minute's time by using an unorthodox technique.

Patrick Johnson said:
How about an example of an unorthodox technique that fixed a student's shot?

BilliardsAbout said:
How about you, Bob or Fran answer my question from the prior post:

"When did pool become the sole stick-and-ball sport where varied strokes aren't helpful for odd occasions?"

So... nothing.

pj
chgo

Bob Jewett · Aug 14, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
... "When did pool become the sole stick-and-ball sport where varied strokes aren't helpful for odd occasions?"

It isn't. There are lots of odd situations where some special cueing technique is required. It's just that such situations -- such as the cue ball being very close to the object ball or needing to take the cue ball off the bed of the table -- are rare.

Here is my take on those other strokes from my October and November articles in 2005 in Billiards Digest:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005.pdf

See "Different Strokes" parts 1 and 2.

FranCrimi · Aug 14, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
How about you, Bob or Fran answer my question from the prior post:

"When did pool become the sole stick-and-ball sport where varied strokes aren't helpful for odd occasions?"

I have no interest in answering any of your questions.

FranCrimi · Aug 14, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
How about you, Bob or Fran answer my question from the prior post:

"When did pool become the sole stick-and-ball sport where varied strokes aren't helpful for odd occasions?"

I have no interest in answering any of your questions. If you don't want to respond to Patrick, that's your issue. I'll respond after you do. If you don't, then I'll tell him privately.

BilliardsAbout · Aug 17, 2020

1) Take a student who has struggled with follow for a long, long time, using a conventional (high) hand bridge and stroke.

2) Setup the 9-ball shot as diagrammed above.

3) Tell student to bridge and practice stroke at center cue ball, take a nice long backstroke on the final stroke, then, with the final forward stroke only--because they're using the hand bridge as a natural fulcrum--to slightly lower the cue butt so that the cue ball is struck above center, using a soft or medium-soft stroke.

4) Watch the cue ball follow the 9-ball straight into the far corner pocket, usually on the first, sometimes on the second attempt.

5) Provide student with Kleenex to wipe away their tears of gratitude.

6) Post same at AZ.

7) Watch as non-teachers criticize you and/or as other teachers say "Wrong!" without ever having attempting this upward stroke on a pool table, to test what I'm saying for themselves or telling you why this method that saves people years of agony with follow shots is "wrong".

BilliardsAbout · Aug 17, 2020

FranCrimi said:
I have no interest in answering any of your questions. If you don't want to respond to Patrick, that's your issue. I'll respond after you do. If you don't, then I'll tell him privately.

Why do you have no interest in answering any of my questions?

BilliardsAbout · Aug 17, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
So... nothing.

pj
chgo

No, not "nothing", I first gave you an opportunity to think through the issues, which you avoided doing.

Put differently, that you debate for the sake of debating, rather than try to learn anything new.

Respectfully to you, you'd be a far better player and teacher if you collaborated with others instead of talking down to them.

MIke Sigel's perfect stroke

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