Consensus "Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) List

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Efren 1
Strickland 1
Varner 1
Pagulayan 1
Sigel 1
FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 109
2 - Earl Strickland - 64
3 - Shane Van Boening - 60
4 - Mike Sigel - 60
5 - Nick Varner - 57
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 48
7 - Johnny Archer - 42
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
10 - Buddy Hall - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Interesting thread Dave. Thanks for your work.
Thank you ... and you're welcome.

Reyes 1
Strickland 1
Van Boening 1
Varner 2
FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 110
2 - Earl Strickland - 65
3 - Shane Van Boening - 61
4 - Mike Sigel - 60
5 - Nick Varner - 59
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 48
7 - Johnny Archer - 42
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
10 - Buddy Hall - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Efren-2
Varner-2
Alex-1
FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 112
2 - Earl Strickland - 65
3 - Shane Van Boening - 61
4 - Nick Varner - 61
5 - Mike Sigel - 60
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 49
7 - Johnny Archer - 42
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
10 - Buddy Hall - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Reyes - 5.......................
FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 117
2 - Earl Strickland - 65
3 - Shane Van Boening - 61
4 - Nick Varner - 61
5 - Mike Sigel - 60
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 49
7 - Johnny Archer - 42
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
10 - Buddy Hall - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Earl 1
Siegel 2
Alex p 2
FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 117
2 - Earl Strickland - 66
5 - Mike Sigel - 62
3 - Shane Van Boening - 61
4 - Nick Varner - 61
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 51
7 - Johnny Archer - 42
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
10 - Buddy Hall - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Efren - 2
Sigel - 1
Strickland - 1
Van Boening - 1
FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 119
2 - Earl Strickland - 67
5 - Mike Sigel - 63
3 - Shane Van Boening - 62
4 - Nick Varner - 61
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 51
7 - Johnny Archer - 42
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
10 - Buddy Hall - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
It's pretty hard for me to fathom why anyone would select Wu over Souquet.

Here are my thoughts on why:

Because Wu is a better more skilled player than Souquet ever was.

Because this poll is called "Greatest of All Time", not "Greatest of All Time for Their Era". If it was "Greatest of All Time for Their Era" then you would have a solid point, but that's not this poll.

What I can't fathom is how anybody could rank somebody higher than somebody else who would beat them. Again, this is "Greatest of All Time", not "Greatest of All Time for Their Era".

"Greatest of All Time" means their skill level in their prime compared to somebody else's skill in their prime, meaning if you were God and could transport (and resurrect if necessary) say Luther Lassiter and Mike Sigel in their primes and have them play a race to 30 of 9 ball every day for a month, who would win?

"Greatest of All Time" pretty much requires that a player's sheer skill level/ability on its own, without any regard for how it compared to their contemporaries, has to by far and away carry the most weight. For the most part any other factors such as titles, longevity, consistency, domination over their contemporaries, and the strength and the depth of the fields they faced etc are only useful as tie breakers when two people's sheer skill/ability levels are a toss up.

As Maniac points out in post #76 (https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6416469&postcount=76), the only thing that makes this difficult (impossible really) is comparing those who were only good in one or two games against those who were good in many. How do you compare say the guy who dominates in just one or two similar games but isn't real near the top in any other game, against the guy who excels and is near the top in a large number of very different games but wasn't quite as dominant in any one of them?

If this was greatest 9/10 ball player of all time then really only two names are even in the discussion the way I see it. One is consistently slightly more skilled per how he performs in general, and per FargoRate, and per their match ups against each other, and has a great resume but still not nearly as good as the other guy's (probably mostly or solely simply because he doesn't compete in most events though). That would be Wu Chia-ching. The other is almost equally as skilled but has a bigger and indeed pretty massive resume including back to back to back victories in majors with some of the strongest, deepest fields in history. That would be Shane Van Boening. The two are close enough in skill level that the massive resume has to put Shane over the top and get my nod as the greatest 9/10 ball player of all time, but had Wu played just as many events things could have easily been different.

For greatest all around player of all time, aside from the most popular games of 9 and 10 ball, you also have to include all the other games for which there are at least occasional professional level tournaments or some popularity in gambling match ups. In order of popularity, on top of 9 ball and 10 ball you would then also have to take into consideration one pocket, eight ball, and straight pool (and possibly banks although this one is debatable at best). For greatest all around player I would argue that the popularity of the game should roughly correspond to how much credit/weight is given for their ability in it. For greatest all around player of all time probably only Efren Reyes, Alex Pagulayan, Dennis Orcullo, Jose Parica, Mike Sigel, and Nick Varner are even in the conversation. This one is pretty tight but I would probably have to give the nod to Efren when considering who would win the all around match up in their primes, and his resume makes the what was close to a tie (with Dennis and Alex) a little more of a clear cut decision so Efren it is.

Because of the difficulty (impossibility) in comparing those who specialized in one or two games against those who played a large number of games very well, I am still undecided and giving thought to where my points should go.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here are my thoughts on why:

Because Wu is a better more skilled player than Souquet ever was.

Because this poll is called "Greatest of All Time", not "Greatest of All Time for Their Era". If it was "Greatest of All Time for Their Era" then you would have a solid point, but that's not this poll.

What I can't fathom is how anybody could rank somebody higher than somebody else who would beat them. Again, this is "Greatest of All Time", not "Greatest of All Time for Their Era".

"Greatest of All Time" means their skill level in their prime compared to somebody else's skill in their prime, meaning if you were God and could transport (and resurrect if necessary) say Luther Lassiter and Mike Sigel in their primes and have them play a race to 30 of 9 ball every day for a month, who would win?

"Greatest of All Time" pretty much requires that a player's sheer skill level/ability on its own, without any regard for how it compared to their contemporaries, has to by far and away carry the most weight. For the most part any other factors such as titles, longevity, consistency, domination over their contemporaries, and the strength and the depth of the fields they faced etc are only useful as tie breakers when two people's sheer skill/ability levels are a toss up.

As Maniac points out in post #76 (https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6416469&postcount=76), the only thing that makes this difficult (impossible really) is comparing those who were only good in one or two games against those who were good in many. How do you compare say the guy who dominates in just one or two similar games but isn't real near the top in any other game, against the guy who excels and is near the top in a large number of very different games but wasn't quite as dominant in any one of them?

If this was greatest 9/10 ball player of all time then really only two names are even in the discussion the way I see it. One is consistently slightly more skilled per how he performs in general, and per FargoRate, and per their match ups against each other, and has a great resume but still not nearly as good as the other guy's (probably mostly or solely simply because he doesn't compete in most events though). That would be Wu Chia-ching. The other is almost equally as skilled but has a bigger and indeed pretty massive resume including back to back to back victories in majors with some of the strongest, deepest fields in history. That would be Shane Van Boening. The two are close enough in skill level that the massive resume has to put Shane over the top and get my nod as the greatest 9/10 ball player of all time, but had Wu played just as many events things could have easily been different.

For greatest all around player of all time, aside from the most popular games of 9 and 10 ball, you also have to include all the other games for which there are at least occasional professional level tournaments or some popularity in gambling match ups. In order of popularity, on top of 9 ball and 10 ball you would then also have to take into consideration one pocket, eight ball, and straight pool (and possibly banks although this one is debatable at best). For greatest all around player I would argue that the popularity of the game should roughly correspond to how much credit/weight is given for their ability in it. For greatest all around player of all time probably only Efren Reyes, Alex Pagulayan, Dennis Orcullo, Jose Parica, Mike Sigel, and Nick Varner are even in the conversation. This one is pretty tight but I would probably have to give the nod to Efren when considering who would win the all around match up in their primes, and his resume makes the what was close to a tie (with Dennis and Alex) a little more of a clear cut decision so Efren it is.

Because of the difficulty (impossibility) in comparing those who specialized in one or two games against those who played a large number of games very well, I am still undecided and giving thought to where my points should go.
Well stated. Thank you for putting in so much thought and effort.

I agree with your appraisal of Wu. I am really surprised nobody has given him any points yet, beyond my initial points.

I look forward to seeing your vote. And remember, you and others will be able to vote in the 2nd round also after the Top 10 is determined in this round.

Regards,
Dave
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Efren 5

Even if others win more money, or win certain events more times, I think it's ok to factor in
"intangibles" when talking about the greatness of a player.

Stuff like individual clutch moments and shots, how they conducted themselves,
how they innovated, their ability to bring admiration and respect
to themselves and the sport.

He's a legend who pulls off highlight reel trick shots in tournaments, and is humble
and funny and displays great sportsmanship. That's part of his greatness.

Bravo! That's a superb post that encapsulates why Efren means so much to so many of us.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Reyes 2
SVB 2
Hall 1
FYI, I added your name and scores to the first post.

Here's the current Top 10 (see the first post for the complete list of players):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 121
2 - Earl Strickland - 67
3 - Shane Van Boening - 64
4 - Mike Sigel - 63
5 - Nick Varner - 61
6 - Alex Pagulayan - 51
7 - Johnny Archer - 42
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
9 - Buddy Hall - 41
10 - Wu Chia-ching - 40

Thank you for participating,
Dave
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
"Greatest of All Time" means their skill level in their prime compared to somebody else's skill in their prime, meaning if you were God and could transport (and resurrect if necessary) say Luther Lassiter and Mike Sigel in their primes and have them play a race to 30 of 9 ball every day for a month, who would win?

"Greatest of All Time" pretty much requires that a player's sheer skill level/ability on its own, without any regard for how it compared to their contemporaries, has to by far and away carry the most weight. For the most part any other factors such as titles, longevity, consistency, domination over their contemporaries, and the strength and the depth of the fields they faced etc are only useful as tie breakers when two people's sheer skill/ability levels are a toss up.

Strongly disagree. Greatness and skill level are not the same and may or may not coincide. Greatness is measured in a player's level of achievement, and a player's level of achievement is measured in titles.

I don't know of any sport that looks at something other than performance in judging its all-time greats. Why should pool be the exception? Skill is not enough.

Wu, a player whose great skill we all concede, has accomplishments that are far too few to merit his inclusion in a discussion of the all-time greats. If he has as much skill as you seem to believe, he'll have the titles soon enough, so perhaps our debate will end up being moot, but until his resume catches up to what one might call "the ability to win a whole bunch of the toughest events against the most elite fields," he can't be compared with those who have already done it.

We can agree to disagree, but performance and achievements are not a tiebreaker as you suggest. They are the very fabric of greatness.
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
What I can't fathom is how anybody could rank somebody higher than somebody else who would beat them.

Sometimes it's not possible to do this.

Imagine A, B, and C are the three best players, and whenever they play A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A.

Whoever is ranked number 1 will be someone one of the other two players beats.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Sometimes it's not possible to do this.

Imagine A, B, and C are the three best players, and whenever they play A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A.

Whoever is ranked number 1 will be someone one of the other two players beats.

Yes, well said.
 
Top