the grip

I'll give feedback that you are correct

almostgood said:

or it could be your stance. bend your knees alittle then bend over from your back. creates better balance. something i figured out through martial arts. set yourself at what is called " the wrong stance", strait legs and stiff back. and have a friend push you from your hip. you should almost fall. bend your knees then bend from your back and have your friend push you, and you will see you are alot more balanced. witch means you see more strait and your back arm dont move side to side. will be perfect with practice, try the stance thing with the bottle drill. you will see a complete difference.
plz give feedback if anyone feels i am incorrect.

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The locked leg is far less stable than a flexed leg with the muscles providing stability. The back leg locked is almost certainly a fallacy as a locked leg has been proven to be in many sports. In addition we aren't really designed to keep the leg hyperextended over and over for long periods so it can cause structural issues over years of doing this.

Hu

I should have figured JoeyA was trying to send me down the garden path!!

I play with JoeyA pretty often since we both play out of Buffalo Billiards. Thought he was a nice guy. I should have known that danged baby faced killer would lead me down the garden path! :grin:

As for Mosconi, hard to say if he was accurate or not. I have watched all of the video I can find of him and he almost never shots a shot any bar room banger couldn't make almost every time too. Matter of fact I admired his lazy man's style of pool so much that I copied it for years. Resulted in me hearing several times a week that I was either "very good or very lucky" but that was in another lifetime. If I had the pattern reading skills and cue ball control now that I had then it wouldn't matter if I couldn't make anything but sitting ducks.

Hu

whitewolf said:

When I saw Mosconi at an exhibition I had him grip my three fingers with the same pressure he used on his cue. There was a very very very slight pressure, to the point of just cradeling the cue.

So my question to you is: do you think Mosconi was inaccurate?!!!!

Some of the best players in the world have used a slip stroke, like Cole Dickson, who IMHO was the most accurate shot on the earth. You have to have no pressure to do this.

The reason why to get more cue ball control with a light grip is that you feel your stroke speed better.

So JoeyA and others who say just use what works best, imo, are wrong wrong dead wrong. Tighter grips don't work best. You will be starting off on the wrong foot is you think so.

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Another Group Reply

Maniac, Fatigue and often pain are issues. Unfortunately I'm not getting to the pool hall very often now and it means one to three hours on the road round trip due to the hassles of New Orleans traffic. As a result when I get there I usually do practice or play in longish sessions, 4-6 hours. The long sessions are almost certainly a part of my problem but I'm not willing to drive one or two hours to play one or two hours.

The muscles on the inside of my arm are considerably more developed than the muscles on the outside of my arm simply because I spend a lot of time on a workbench. When the grip tightens too much or unexpectedly engaging the forearm muscles is where I feel steering is coming from. I can grasp a cue butt sitting here at my desk with my elbow anchored and see it pull to the inside as I tighten my grip

Inconsistent grip seems to be the issue, the only question is what grip should I be working towards? A lot of varying opinions even from pro's and instructors.

After reading and watching much video all agree that a light to moderate grip should be used. Some world champions say to tighten the grip on the final stroke but most people seem to agree to keep it consistent also. The real catch is that "light" and "moderate" mean far different things to different people.

White Wolf, Since I am posting again I might as well admit that JoeyA advocates a light grip as a first choice, he just also accepts different people can do whatever works for them. I was just having fun stirring the pot about a friend earlier.

Blackjack, I will watch the video's again. I pocketed balls very well using a slip stroke, slipping the hand back on the back stroke. Speed control was the issue and having to use an old linen wrapped cue that I don't really like. If I was getting more time on the table I would stay with the slip stroke for a few months at a minimum, maybe stay with it. I'm sure that speed control comes with practice. I have spoken with JAM quite a bit but it's been 35 years since I have talked to Keith. I do remember that my own grip pressure varied with the shot way back when. I'm really tempted to throw away the last three or four years since I came back to pool and tried to play textbook style and go back to what I call "cowboy style" which did get the balls in the holes and get the cue ball where I wanted it. Might look silly sometimes but nobody has given me any extra points for style on a pool table.

Hu

too soon to know if it is helpful, interesting for sure!

sfleinen said:

Here's an interesting video that showcases one of the most common grips in snooker, the "rear-handed / rear-fingered" grip (i.e. thumb + middle, ring, pinkie; the index finger is loose/neutral):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W2Ye61WiLMk

(The camera angle at 8 mins 7 secs [8:07] in the video offers a very clear view of Ronnie's rear-handed grip, with the index finger plainly visibly neutral in the grip. When viewed from the rear, Ronnie's firm pinkie contact on the cue is visible also.)

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

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Sean,

Definitely interesting. My hand isn't huge but it is big enough that I can let thumb and forefinger dangle and grasp the cue stick securely with the middle and ring finger or even just the ring finger and pinky. Matter of fact I can strangle the cue with just the ring finger and pinky. The cue does seem to be moving straight just hitting my measle ball at home, no pool table.

I can't tell if Ronnie is using his thumb much if at all but it seems like it would be interesting to try the back of the hand a little. I shot a few shots like that after seeing or reading about the rear finger grip awhile back but I didn't stay with it long enough to get past the fact it felt strange. I'm a little cautious using some things from snooker without all because they usually use a four anchor point system too but I see Ronnie shooting pool style with this grip.

Thanks for posting this!

Hu

seems to have personal benefits

Sean,

I have spent about thirty minutes playing with the rear grip, in too confined of a space though. My hands resemble bear paws, they are comparatively short and wide with a lot of meat on them. I also have a large web between the thumb and forefinger. I have a large pad at the base of my thumb that often is very noticeable on some of the shots you are talking about. The rear grip clears this which seems to indicate that it will be a part of my game if not more. The web of my hand does touch but as you note, tons of follow through are easy as are jacked up shots.

These threads and the PM's they often generate give me lots of things to try. Some things stay, some things I learn from and just take some of the principles forward. Either way, these pool related threads some consider worthless are of great interest to me.

Hu

sfleinen said:

Hu:

What's really cool about the rear-handed grip, is that there's no limit to how far forward you want your follow-through to be. If you implement an elbow drop, you can even follow-through to the point where your forearm closes-in on the butt of the cue like a pair of scissors (your rear fingers being the scissor's hinge), and even have your forearm meet the butt of the cue with a slight bend of the wrist. Granted, it's questionable to take it this far, but the premise is that the rear-fingered/rear-handed grip is very conducive to follow-through.

Another great feature of the rear-handed/rear-fingered grip? Jacked-up shots! It's much easier to get a good stroking position when jacked-up using a rear-handed grip, because the fulcrum that the cue "pivots on" is moved further back into the hand (i.e. onto the ring or pinkie fingers) and you don't have to tilt so far forward trying to get your elbow high in the air. Try it! I'll bet if you freeze the cue ball against the long rail, and place an object ball somewhere in the middle of the table in line with the side pocket on the opposite side of the table, that you can jack-up and execute a perfect, firm stun shot into the side pocket -- really thwack the pocket.

In fact, I'll pull out the rear-fingered grip when I'm presented with a shot that needs me to jack up, so that I don't have to stand on my tippie toes trying to get my elbow so high in the air. The rear-fingered grip allows me to get my arm perfectly "over" the cue, without having to tilt so far forward, or implement an undesirable sidearm stroke. And, oh yes -- jump shots! The rear-handed grip works great on jump shots -- you can really follow-through and get a high-jump cue ball result.

I was tempted to post this in the "More elbow dropping nonsense" thread, but that thread is really getting messy, and IMHO, about to do the death spiral into the ground. I decided to stay out of it, and just watch the imminent mushroom cloud from afar.

Give it a try -- it may feel foreign at first, but when you take your mind off it and watch the results, it won't feel foreign for long!

-Sean

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CreeDo said:

I guess one of the reasons I question whether this discussion is useful is because everything is so relative. I could say "bob, I shoot with a pretty loose grip already, but I tried loosening up a smidge more and I shot lights out". Bob could say "yeah I also have a loose grip but I'll try that." ... then he does and he shoots great.

Meanwhile, bob's "extra loose" grip is three times tighter than my tightest grip ever was. He has no idea what I really mean by loose/hard.

Talking in terms of fingers helps a little but it still isn't accurate. My three fingered grip could be totally different from the other guy's and I won't need to grip my forward weighted 18 oz cue the same way he grips his 21 oz.

So far the only thing I can take away at this point is: A. nobody seems to be a fan of tightening up, but loosening up is worth a shot and B. Slipstrokes look pretty.

Things I don't buy:

Slipstrokes... just because a handful of guys played high level pool and made it look good on the black and white TV screen doesn't mean it makes sense. It sounds like adding one more moving part to the motion we [mostly] agree should be kept as simple as possible. Having to release and grab the cue smoothly during the stroke... it just seems like you're introducing something that can go wrong.

Softer/firmer grips changing how much spin goes on the ball...

The ball doesn't really know or care how much radial pressure was on the butt end of the stick 50 inches away from where it got struck. How is a loose gripped stick moving at 12.05 miles per hour going to affect the ball differently than a tight gripped stick that hits the exact same place at 12.05 miles per hour? Unless we're saying the loose grip is causing the tip to swerve sideways a bit or something, which can't possibly be good and wouldn't really affect english much anyway.

I like the sound of "as loose as possible without sacrificing accuracy". Basically that means enough grip so that the stick moves where you hand does, but not so much grip that a bit of accidental tightening or extra wrist movement will actually steer the entire stick.

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You forget, I shot the proverbial "lights out" one day when I was having trouble and went to a closed bridge so tight it took the same grip as a very firm handshake to force the cue through my bridge. I couldn't do it long because it was starting to blister my bridge hand in maybe two dozen shots and I work with my hands, they aren't soft and delicate. So adding my own first hand knowledge to all of the other reports we have grips working from just the cue floating in a cradle to a very tight grip. We also have a consistent pressure grip working and one that tightens when we hit the cue ball. We have two or three front fingers and the thumb working, we have two or three rear fingers with an unknown amount of thumb working too. We have world class players using every conceivable stroke too.

One thing I have noticed, most people today don't even know what a slip stroke is. Confusing a classic slip stroke with a stroke slip leads to some erroneous conclusions. The slip stroke is far more than just pretty as a local shortstop quickly decided when he played with it a little at my table.

Nothing wrong with anyone recommending the things that work for them, that is what the forum is for when it is working at it's best. However, those that put down methods that they haven't perfected themselves are talking with a lack of knowledge. A very short stroke ala Allen Hopkins Sr is rarely recommended, he was certainly world class with it. Keith's side arm, Jimmy Moore and other's slip stroke, the list goes on and on. There may come a time when most top players shoot much the same way but If you take the top two or three dozen men in the world today I'll bet that more than half use fairly unique strokes of their own, not a pendulum. I'd go so far as to say a trademark of champions is that they find what works best for them rather than just traveling the beaten path.

I agree with most of the benefits claimed for the pendulum. One thing I don't agree with is that it is a simple stroke to execute. Nor do I agree that it can generate quite the speed of strokes involving more long muscles and more joints. It can generate all of the speed and spin needed for the vast majority of shots on a pool table and that is what counts. Of course a simple wrist flip can too.

Every thread like this exposes me to at least a few new ideas and often causes me to revisit some old ones. They also cause me to compare the claims and the way we do things to what I already know about body mechanics and sports medicine, two things I studied extensively years ago. When we all think we can all learn. The threads where people are just repeating the same things they have been parroting for years are the ones that are worthless in terms of anyone learning and growing. I think all sides have contributed material well worth thinking about in these two threads running concurrently on grip and stroke.

There are quite a few things I could ask about the pendulum. The same is true of all other strokes too, there is no simple way for the motion of the human arm to be translated to a straight back and forth motion of the cue without some machinery in between. To complicate things with a pendulum we are asking adjoining muscle groups to perform contrasting tasks where some other strokes have them performing complimentary tasks. These things don't make a pendulum bad, but they do make it a lot like a duck swimming. Ever see underwater footage of a duck swimming? While he is gliding along smoothly on the surface there is a hell of a lot going on under that outward appearance that we see.

Hu

Since nobody has commented

whitewolf said:

I don't mean to contradict myself about having a loose grip, but it sure looks to me like Allison Fisher grips the cue firmly, and she is extremely accurate.

Can someone chime in on Allison please?

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Snooker players and snooker style pool players use more contact points than typical pool players. These contact points can be thought of as control points. Because of this they can get away with some things that people with a more typical pool stance can't. Side pressure on a grip should be taboo but when it is pressing the cue into a chest contact point mildly uneven side pressure on the grip is harmless. With the bridge and chin forcing vertical alignment minor grip imperfections are less likely to steer the cue vertically also.

These things are why when we try to take some things from another style that works well without taking all things we sometimes get in trouble. Stance, grip, bridge, and stroke can be thought of as a complete delivery system. Alter one component and it can have little effect or it can require changing everything in the system to accommodate one seemingly minor change.

Hu