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mohrt
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06-25-2019, 11:33 AM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I can't get a different outcome in the situation you describe. I can, however, make two slightly different angled shots using the same perception and pivot for each shot, just as I can use the same fractional aim FG or each shot. This is possible due to slight angle differences with CIT factored in. Sometimes, if the shot angle difference is equally offset by a difference in CIT, both balls might go center pocket. But normally each shot goes into a different part of the pocket as the angle changes slightly but the aim remains constant. If I move the ob a little, then a little more, I will eventually reach a point where that particular perception and pivot misses the pocket entirely and a different perception must be used.

It sounds good when Stan says the balls "connect to the right angles of a regulation pool table", that every shot tracks to "center pocket", etc... But in reality the entire pocket is being used, and as the ob begins to miss the pocket, a different perception/pivot must be used in order to send the ob back toward the pocket.

If the book and truth series can explain or show how the ob tracks to center pocket even when a particular perception and pivot is nearing its limits, then I'll eat my words and graciously admit that I was wrong about the system utilizing the entire pocket.
Stan has demos of him shooting into a 2 1/2" pocket, I'll see if I can find it. To accomplish this with any sort of consistency, of course the system has to work, but you had better have some serious fundamentals as well.


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  (#242)
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06-25-2019, 11:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I assume he's saying the same thing in a clumsy way. If he really means the CTE line touches the OB contact point, then of course he's wrong - a CTE line, by definition, can't do that.

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The CTEL has nothing to do with the contact point. It goes through the outermost edge, or point, on the OB.
  
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  (#243)
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06-25-2019, 11:41 AM

But that outermost edge changes with ball location just like if you were using contact point aiming the contact point would change with ball location.
  
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  (#244)
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06-25-2019, 11:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
The CTEL has nothing to do with the contact point. It goes through the outermost edge, or point, on the OB.
Good - we agree on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
But that outermost edge changes with ball location just like if you were using contact point aiming the contact point would change with ball location.
But we disagree on that. With the CB and OB the same distance apart CTE line must touch the same point on the OB no matter where you're standing or how you're looking (see again my example with the pivoting cue). That's just basic physical reality.

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06-25-2019, 11:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Good - we agree on that.


But we disagree on that. With the CB and OB the same distance apart CTE line must touch the same point on the OB no matter where you're standing or how you're looking (see again my example with the pivoting cue). That's just basic physical reality.

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chgo
That's like saying if you point your cue at a contact point, then change ball locations, the contact point stays the same. Clearly doesn't make sense and doesn't work
  
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  (#246)
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06-25-2019, 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post


But we disagree on that. With the CB and OB the same distance apart CTE line must touch the same point on the OB no matter where you're standing or how you're looking (see again my example with the pivoting cue). That's just basic physical reality.

pj
chgo
I believe that’s only true if our heads were fixed and our feet were glued to the floor.

But they aren’t.

But since we can move our heads we can get different perceptions.
  
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Old
  (#247)
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06-25-2019, 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
Question. You shot the first two balls with you version of CTE then went on to explain what you thought would happen if you kept moving the OB to the left. But you never shot the shots just gave an opinion, WHY?
I shot the farther left shots, as Mohrt had done, after the power came back on. I just didn't record it. I did pocket them using a 30 inside, all the way up to the half diamond placement. I figured, as I said in the video, that it could be done. But I know why and how, and it's for the same reasons I was able to pocket the shots using a straight 5/8 aim point each time.

The angle range from shot 1 to shot 4 is only about 3°. For shot #1 I believe the 30 inside provides just enough of an overcut to account for the CIT. If there was no CIT the ball would probably miss just right of the pocket, maybe rattle up. From shot #4 the 30 inside provides the same angle as it does for shot #1, but the ball ends up going into the pocket left of center, about 3° from where shot #1 went in. Any ball placed between ob 1 and ob 4 can be made using the same visuals and pivot, or the same fractional aim point.

This sketch shows two slighly different cut shots, and both being shot using a halfball hit. The dashed line represents the ghostball aim. A normal amount of CIT thickens the shot by a couple of degrees (solid arrow lines). Any ob placed between A and B will hit the pocket by using one aim point or one perception/pivot. I think this is how CTE works instead of center pocket everytime, and if I'm wrong may the CTE book and truth series set me straight.



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  (#248)
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06-25-2019, 12:08 PM

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Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
Stan has demos of him shooting into a 2 1/2" pocket, I'll see if I can find it. To accomplish this with any sort of consistency, of course the system has to work, but you had better have some serious fundamentals as well.
I can shoot balls into a 2.5" pocket, so I have no doubts that a player of Stan's caliber can do it, CTE or not.
  
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  (#249)
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06-25-2019, 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
Stan has demos of him shooting into a 2 1/2" pocket, I'll see if I can find it. To accomplish this with any sort of consistency, of course the system has to work, but you had better have some serious fundamentals as well.
Is this the video? 2-1/2" pocket. Oct 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiwvH_3A7pY
  
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  (#250)
mohrt
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06-25-2019, 12:13 PM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I shot the farther left shots, as Mohrt had done, after the power came back on. I just didn't record it. I did pocket them using a 30 inside, all the way up to the half diamond placement. I figured, as I said in the video, that it could be done. But I know why and how, and it's for the same reasons I was able to pocket the shots using a straight 5/8 aim point each time.

The angle range from shot 1 to shot 4 is only about 3°. For shot #1 I believe the 30 inside provides just enough of an overcut to account for the CIT. If there was no CIT the ball would probably miss just right of the pocket, maybe rattle up. From shot #4 the 30 inside provides the same angle as it does for shot #1, but the ball ends up going into the pocket left of center, about 3° from where shot #1 went in. Any ball placed between ob 1 and ob 4 can be made using the same visuals and pivot, or the same fractional aim point.

This sketch shows two slighly different cut shots, but both shot using a halfball hit. The dashed line represents the ghostball aim. A normal amount of CIT thickens the shot by a couple of degrees (solid arrow lines). Any ob placed between A and B will hit the pocket by using one aim point or one perception/pivot. I think this is how CTE works instead center pocket everytime, and if I'm wrong may the CTE book and truth series set me straight.


Do you think your theory would work (pocket slop) on shots like these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiwvH_3A7pY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJX5F20avYE


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  (#251)
mohrt
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06-25-2019, 12:14 PM

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Originally Posted by SmokinJoe46 View Post
Is this the video? 2-1/2" pocket. Oct 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiwvH_3A7pY
yes, and I also found it and just posted the comment before this one Here is another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJX5F20avYE


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  (#252)
mohrt
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06-25-2019, 12:17 PM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I can shoot balls into a 2.5" pocket, so I have no doubts that a player of Stan's caliber can do it, CTE or not.
But I mean using your theory where a 5/8 cut will work for a range of shots. It begins to break down at some level.


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  (#253)
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06-25-2019, 12:31 PM

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Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
More for cut shots
Only on a very thin cut shot, nearly impossibly thin, could the CTE line cross through that contact point on the backside of the ball that's facing away from pocket. The farthest visible left or right point/edge of the ball is always in the same place regardless of your perspective. So I'm lost here. Are you messing with my head just for laughs?
  
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  (#254)
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06-25-2019, 12:35 PM

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Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
Do you think your theory would work (pocket slop) on shots like these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiwvH_3A7pY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJX5F20avYE
I think shots like these are accomplished through years of playing pool and just knowing exactly where the balls are going, CTE or not. Aiming systems can be very accurate, but the most precise shot making stems from experience. Like this shot....https://youtu.be/XK7Fa2tw8qI

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  (#255)
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06-25-2019, 12:41 PM

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But I mean using your theory where a 5/8 cut will work for a range of shots. It begins to break down at some level.
Yes, using that 5/8 aim begins to break down when a thinner or thicker aim is needed, exactly like the 15 inside or the 30 inside. Do you honestly believe that when you hit those 4 curtain shots with a 30 inside the ob tracked toward center pocket each time? You even said that from half a diamond it was about at the limits of the 30 inside. So do you think that 4th shot went center hole, but if you moved the ball another half inch out it would miss the pocket entirely?

Last edited by BC21; 06-25-2019 at 12:47 PM.
  
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