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02-14-2020, 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by painfullyslow View Post
Very interesting thread!

I greatly enjoy learning about the different way that people's brains work and how there are many ways to get the same job done.

Personally, I have no monologue. During my normal day, my thoughts are going a mile a minute. The way my brain works is that even if I am speaking with someone, I have at least one or likely multiple other though processes going on in the background. It is actually quite maddening.

This is why I enjoy high concentration activities. Not too long ago it was racing motorcycles but currently it is shooting pool. During those times, my mind goes quiet...which is bliss by the way. All that white noise goes away and it is peaceful because my brain recognizes that I need all available function for the task at hand.

As for the monologue and how it pertains to running tables? I just 'see' the table. I know that is somewhat ambiguous but really that is how it works for me.

From the break I see the paths I will need to take to get around the table and pocket whatever needs to be pocketed, in what order, and whatever breakouts need to be done, etc.

I do not consciously think as I approach a shot 'ok, I need to hit this with 1/4 tip low and 1 tip right english at a medium-slow speed to get position on the next ball.' My brain simply recognizes it instinctively and does it. I trust myself.

It is interesting because when off the table, I am very much a calculating, physics-minded person who if you asked on paper how a shot needed to be performed, I could describe it in detail. When actually shooting though, nothing. Just pure concentration. I think the only thing going through my mind is an occasional reminder to follow through on my stroke.
I ride and at one point race motorcycles. There is something about doing something life threatening that puts one in the moment because if you are not, you die.

From riding and racing motorcycles and some high performance car driving, I see lines........path to where I need to go.

I carried this over to pool playing. I see the line the CB will take. It quite simple.

And you must understand about target fixation, going where you are looking, which is why I always look at where the CB needs to go and never the OB.

I understand about just “seeing the table” meaning you are seeing everything on the table and not looking at anything. For me, I can place my center vision on a spot on the table the allows me to see the whole shot and just not parts of it as if my central vision was going from pocket, OB, CB and so on.

Same in motorcycle racing......you have to able to see and sense what’s around you without looking at any one thing.

Being mid pack in a grid of 20 plus racers, all heading for the same line for the first turn at a start of a race......you can not look at any one thing, but train yourself to seeing everything that’s is happening beside you and in front of you. You can not just be looking at the rider in front of you.

You are using more of you motorcycle experience than you know.

Last edited by duckie; 02-14-2020 at 09:31 AM.
  
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02-16-2020, 03:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
The possibility occurs to me that people who must read to themselves aloud may not have the ability to communicate with their brain silently.

Just a thought.
At first glance, this seems like a reasonable explanation, but the experts studying this phenomenon think that everyone born before the 1700’s read out loud instead of silently.

I confess that I’m not an expert on this subject, just a layperson who finds it fascinating and a bit perplexing.

You might want to check-out these links, too, about the brains of people who learned to read as adults ... are

https://www.dailyactor.com/film/lanc...-of-character/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...brain-changes/

Last edited by RabbiHippie; 02-16-2020 at 06:35 AM.
  
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02-16-2020, 05:51 AM

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Originally Posted by duckie View Post
I ride and at one point race motorcycles. There is something about doing something life threatening that puts one in the moment because if you are not, you die.

From riding and racing motorcycles and some high performance car driving, I see lines........path to where I need to go.

I carried this over to pool playing. I see the line the CB will take. It quite simple.

And you must understand about target fixation, going where you are looking, which is why I always look at where the CB needs to go and never the OB.

I understand about just “seeing the table” meaning you are seeing everything on the table and not looking at anything. For me, I can place my center vision on a spot on the table the allows me to see the whole shot and just not parts of it as if my central vision was going from pocket, OB, CB and so on.

Same in motorcycle racing......you have to able to see and sense what’s around you without looking at any one thing.

Being mid pack in a grid of 20 plus racers, all heading for the same line for the first turn at a start of a race......you can not look at any one thing, but train yourself to seeing everything that’s is happening beside you and in front of you. You can not just be looking at the rider in front of you.

You are using more of you motorcycle experience than you know.
You very much hit the proverbial nail on the head here. I taught advanced racing techniques to the up-and-comers and we call it 'floodlight' and 'spotlight' vision...the ability to take in everything around you, and the ability to focus on a specific point. It is necessary in both pool and racing to be able to do both.

And yes I think it is what drew me into both racing and pool is the path that you describe, as I can see both. For pool specifically though, I absolutely use 'spotlight' vision a lot more.

After a break or shot, I survey the table and develop or confirm the path that I want the table to take. From there, it is pure focus on the contact point between cue ball and object ball...at least for me.

But back to the original topic, all of that is done without any kind of monologue...and no, I do not have to read to myself aloud

I am curious for those of you who do have this monologue going on...first off, do you actually hear in your head 'ok, tip placement here, smooth stroke, aim precisely, follow through...etc?' I would think that would be extremely distracting.

Secondly, I have read here that there are those who have to 'reign in' their monologue, especially when coming back after making a less than ideal shot, citing negative feedback and how it affects future play. It seems to me that we would be better off without this monologue entirely...no?
  
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02-20-2020, 01:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckie View Post
It’s the scene toward the end of the movie when they are playing at night on the last hole.

I’ve found learning to control what my “internal dialogue” is doing has helped my level of consistency.

Over time, I’ve noticed there are shots where the CB and OB goes exactly where I wanted. I mean the CB placement is dead on where I want it.

Then there are times, the CB isn’t even close to where I wanted it.

Why, what was the difference?

Slowly, the realization came bout that it was how by “internal dialogue” was describing the shot.

On shots where the CB went exactly where I wanted, the shot description was like this...........OB needs to there and the CB needs to go there, then I’d do the shot with the results that were in my mind.

On shots where the CB did not go where I wanted, the shot description was like .......the OB needs to be there and the CB needs to be there, so I need to place the CB at this point at the OB using this amount of stroke and or spin so the CB goes to where I want........in other words thinking too much about the shots, instead of just doing the shot.

One of my favorite lines from Bagger Vance is...........sometimes we just need to get out of the way of ourselves......
When I learned that different levels of consciousness were dominant in the three main sensory modes a new reality emerged. Everyday consciousness processes all sensory information but a particular sense will dominate that conscious domain. In my case it is the auditory and inner dialogue. If I move that to the background and allow my foreground to drink in all the visual information, a mild trance is experienced. This is my best playing mode. I play shape better when I pull the feeling elements to the front, then focus on the visuals.

I no longer fight my inner dialogue, I harness it. Since the visual element lets me trance I use the inner dialogue to talk me through the shape and that sense first. Then I get that same voice to point out all the visual elements.

It tells me to check for the little pieces of chalk or lint on the ball paths. It has me look at the shot at the impact area and see the exact contact area close up. With that detailed picture held in mind I fixate on the object ball details while returning to the cue ball. I find the exact line of the cue that points the cue ball contact point to the object ball contact point. The cue pointed directly from point to point is parallel to the ghost ball line. A parallel shift to center ball takes me there. Next come visual adjustments. A gearing English 40% shift on some longer shots or shots needing outside english is another visual. A convergent English throw minimizing adjustment on longer shots or shots where I want a neutral cue ball keep me in the visual subconscious mode. If your subconscious is the feeling mode bringing those elements to the foreground will induce trance and keep you focused there.

A player I helped with this; he holds his breath then exhales to drop his activation level just before getting down. Feeling the straightness of the stroke, the feel of the weight, the velocity and the momentum of the mass moving to and through the ball all connect. He also feels a connection between his two hands. When they connect properly he feels, with certainty, that the ball will go in. Since feelings are also the domain of anxiety, heightened awareness can magnify wanting to escape the pressure. Players getting up often are fleeing the situation. In the fight or flight of the stress dynamic they are in flight mode. Words have meanings attached. Choose words like “calm“, if you want to induce it. We search inwards for meaning which brings out the embodied sense. Direct action by using cross sensing words. “Smooth” is both a visual and a feeling word. Straight cueing is both. Arcing motion has a visual and feeling component. Swing is both. These types of sensory dialogues allow you to straddle the two sensory modes. They can be very trancing when choreographed together while giving verbal instruction to students. Put elements of feel and visuals together while phrasing inner dialogue. Cross sensing allows for players to step out of the feeling mode when stress wants to keep you in feeling mode only. Step away from the stress using transitions with a visual element. Give a color to and imagine tension in the body as colored shapes based on color coded intensity. Color wash tense areas with calm tones. Add tones to dialogue that create inner effects. Take positives from controlled stress. You bent without breaking or even cracking.

Make the inner dialogue work for you by controlling the inner narrative. Script useful instruction sets for different situations. Unscripted is a script too. You can be at its mercy or seize control, your choice.

Last edited by Imac007; 02-20-2020 at 06:03 AM.
  
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02-20-2020, 07:49 AM

First, I am not a martial artist.

I do however draw inspiration from the training concepts that are used and some are based in Zen.

One of this concept is mushin.........of no mind.

Here’s a link that might help explain the concept........

https://jpninfo.com/53434

I have the Book of Five Rings.....

There is a training aspect of aikido that is kinda interesting...during training.......no words are used. The master shows the move, it is up to the student to figure it out from there.

Last edited by duckie; 02-20-2020 at 07:52 AM.
  
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02-20-2020, 07:54 AM

Yes, I have an internal dialogue... It's normally a sarcastic version of my self saying "nice job, donkey" 100+ times a day.


-H

Disclaimer:
I'm really a sh!t pool player and you probably shouldn't listen to any advice I may give.
  
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02-20-2020, 08:32 AM

My inner voice is the kid in Caddie Shack that kept saying “Noooonan Noooonan”


If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting.
  
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02-20-2020, 09:53 AM

When I'm playing well, there is silence. Complete harmony between mind and body. This is often referred to as "the zone". When there's a sliver of doubt in a shot or pattern, the mind starts thinking and analyzing; the inner voice is loud. Thus begins the battle of the mental game.


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02-23-2020, 11:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
I think, if you can do it, the best option when playing pool is an on/off switch.

I don't actually have to think about doing so but s I've noted, when playing, my IM goes into silent mode, which I consider a blessing.

Lou Figueroa
After working with shifting awareness based on sensory mode I’ve come to think about things in a more natural sense. Each sense is there in every situation. When one is missing we really notice, like when the lights are off. There is rarely an off switch. There is a foreground/background reality though. In everyday consciousness one sense takes the foreground and it is like water to fish, only really noticed when it’s not there.

The sense dominant in our everyday consciousness rules that domain. We now know that the subconscious will be dominant in a different sense than rules consciousness. Of the three main sensory modes; see, hear and feel, the domain of the unconscious will be the third sense.

Being dominant doesn’t make it a solo act. Because you’re right handed doesn’t mean you don’t use the left, it just that you structure your physical awareness around that perspective. An auditory dominant player may find their subconscious sensory world pulled into t he foreground with a background commentary now happening. When truly relegated to the background and describing the foreground a different type of language is used. For example a player that is visually dominant in their subconscious might have an inner vocal coach. The language of that coach would reflect the visual nature of the now mostly visual reality. It would tell him to “look” closely at the shot, “look closer”, magnifying the elements. Focusing in on the small elements, then out to the whole shot, while holding onto all relevant details. That phrasing is full of visually descriptive language. Attention is drawn to the lines, the exact targets on the balls, for the tip and at the holes and rails, emerge in that world. The vocal direct can Also put the player momentarily in touch with the “feeling” elements, then trust the unconscious to take care of those needed touches. A complete picture is created, full of hand/eye imagery.

We truly create our world by what we focus on, the connections we make between the things we choose to experience, and give meaning and the importance we place on them. “Reality” emerges as we create possible worlds that make sense accordingly.

A reality in which our subconscious sense is front and center is an altered reality for the player and is experienced as a light trance.

I no longer fight inner dialogue, I harness it as a background commentator/advisor who knows when to hold off respectfully when it’s time to execute And uses the language needed to fill that altered performance state with relevant details.

The subject of the original poster that some people don’t have an internal dialogue in theIr conscious or unconscious awareness must logically mean that they formulate and generate dialogue unconsciously.

Last edited by Imac007; 02-24-2020 at 07:29 AM.
  
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02-24-2020, 12:17 AM

No, I do not have an internal dialogue.

Yes you do.

No I don't.

Shut up and break.


  
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03-01-2020, 06:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Bic D View Post
This is amazing to me...(see above post) honestly, how do you get through the day with a voice in your head...albeit your voice with your accent, I assume.

Serious question....Does your voice ask yourself questions and then yourself answers?

That's a F----k-- up question so don't answer or just call me stupid I guess.

Edited to say...

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or an ass by asking if you are talking to yourself with questions. Actually, I'm not sure what I'm asking at this point
Just find anyone in a pair of cargo pants, t-shirt and flip flops. No external or internal voice.


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