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02-09-2020, 06:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Comparing the two from the front like this illustrates the most useful feature of the fist bridge for me: I can get the cue lower, so more level on draw shots.

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chgo
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yes indeed
mark finkelstein showed it to me
  
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02-11-2020, 06:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Drive View Post
How ever far your back side/weight sticks out, your bending over forward weight, Must offset that. This allows your core weight to be centered between both feet.
Similar to a teeter totter with both kids the same weight....BUT if one kid is heavier than the other kid, then the heavier kid has to sit inward more, if not, then there movement will be ''out of balance'' is all.
What the heck does "core weight being centered between both feet" mean?
  
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02-11-2020, 07:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
What the heck does "core weight being centered between both feet" mean?
Settle down....

Remember your E. Coast and I am W. Coast. We think and process concepts Quite differently and Explain concepts differently is all.

Try this, though I know you don't need to.

Stand up straight with your feet together....forget the pool table.

Try and lean a little left or right, you'll fall over/your body is no longer balanced. Your core weight is not centered between your feet.

Same thing....as the below statement.

Again stand up straight with your feet together or spread, and bend your body forward, you'll fall over, unless you stick your back side outward & off set the forward Displacement of your torso weight.


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02-17-2020, 06:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Drive View Post
Settle down....

Remember your E. Coast and I am W. Coast. We think and process concepts Quite differently and Explain concepts differently is all.

Try this, though I know you don't need to.

Stand up straight with your feet together....forget the pool table.

Try and lean a little left or right, you'll fall over/your body is no longer balanced. Your core weight is not centered between your feet.

Same thing....as the below statement.

Again stand up straight with your feet together or spread, and bend your body forward, you'll fall over, unless you stick your back side outward & off set the forward Displacement of your torso weight.
Nonsense. It should have nothing to do with what coast you live on. It doesn't help our sport when people start stringing words together ("core weight centered between both feet") that don't make sense when they're together, and then attempt to attach a meaning to them. I have very little tolerance for gibberish.
  
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02-17-2020, 07:57 AM

Sometime I think people forget greatness at any sport cost time. Friend run a gymnasium, has been at it 35 years. He says every four years after Olynpics ever little girls what to be in the Olympics. Parents pay big bucks for coaching, etc. Today he has a couple of 12 y/o's who could go in 2024.

He has had one go in 35 years, most of the kids when they find out their dream means no life but School, Gym, and Resting. The kids have no social life if they want to wear the US Gymnastics Team Uniform, and compete. His gymnasium is 92% girl, 8% boys.

Most never even get close to an Olympic Uniform, unless they buy one in a shop.

Greatness cost!


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02-17-2020, 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I'll nit pick on this point. "Perpendicular to the shot line" is not a clear way to say this. "Perpendicular" refers to the relationship of two lines (or planes). The first line -- the shot line which is the line of the cue stick and the cue ball's path -- is clear enough, but what is your other line?

I think something like "facing the shot squarely with both the hips and shoulders square to shot line" would be clearer. If that's what you meant.

To answer your question, I think that your exact body position when back away from the table and sizing up the shot is not critical. I think it helps a little to be consistent, and I think that if you work on your shot routine consciously your "back away from the table before I step forward" position will become consistent more or less on its own. It is way, way down the list of things to fret about.

How is your fist bridge?
Very important aspect of play to understand.

Walking up too the shot. You develop a baseline of body movements, similar to how many golf pros address there shots. What's good about this is....you'll create habits that are either good or bad, but consistent. Easy to correct, especially if your under the tutelage of a good instructor.


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Talking 02-17-2020, 09:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Well, no, it's not the same as the standard closed bridge of Mosconi and others. The difference is very important. bbb did not show us what his middle finger was doing. Maybe he could give us the finger in another picture.



Nice roll BJ I like it..........LOL


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02-17-2020, 09:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Nonsense. It should have nothing to do with what coast you live on. It doesn't help our sport when people start stringing words together ("core weight centered between both feet") that don't make sense when they're together, and then attempt to attach a meaning to them. I have very little tolerance for gibberish.
Settle down....we just get our points across to our students in a different manner. Were not talking politics, tho it has that Feel. Nonsense

I also have very little tolerance for some things myself.

I've never thought of your words as Gibberish, just another way of perceiving the same thing from MY perspective.


Since I never taught my students the meaning of SPF, is that wrong?

I had and airline pilot that had difficulty understanding ''walking up to the shot''. So I asked him, when you land, do your come into the landing strip from the side and take a quick turn and land, or do you approach it in the manner that has consistent actions? He instantly understood.

Had I not of spent the first 30 minutes of our first lesson talking about his work/lifestyle, I would not of come up with that idea, to help him ''get it'' by saying it in this manner. I've learned, talking to a person from different walks of life, helps explain matters more from their perspective and they understand it and internalize it easier/faster.

Wish I could write and express thoughts as well as Many, but I never did like school, was always forced to do it, instead of tricked into liking it at a young age.

It's like saying students from Harvard and Yale back in the 30's thought about life the same way, as those living hand to mouth in Washington State. Different cultures. Entirely.

Another example, do all coaches in all basketball explain how to shoot a layup the exact same way. Is it better mechanics to throw a football like Brady, or Montana, or Farve or Otto Graham?


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Last edited by Island Drive; 02-20-2020 at 06:19 AM.
  
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The dance of the stance
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The dance of the stance - 02-19-2020, 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
whats the best way??
or pros and cons of each?
some seem to advocate standing square to the the shot
ie your body perpendicular to the shot line
some players seem to stand angled along their shooting stance
behind the shot
is one way better than the other??
your opinions appreciated
This is an edit
To be clear I am talking about how you stand when you address the shot line before you step into the shot
My question has nothing to do with when you are down on the shot on the table
I apologize for any confusion to my question
In golf there is a concept called ball bound. It’s about how the mind can’t help but be fixated on the ball once it is put down. When I first heard the term I had another concept came to mind.

When a beginner driver takes the wheel, the immediate surroundings can be overwhelming. Gauges, levers, mirrors, pedals and the steering wheel grab their attention. When the vehicle is started and put in gear, attention is forced out to the hood and beyond to the immediate road. Fixating on the direction of travel and keeping the vehicle precisely controlled can lead to over steering. With experience the driver learns to move attention to the horizon and the lane at a distance. The idea that attention can be bound to near objects is an important observation in pool.

A player getting down at the table, finding the shot and trying to align the cue with the cue ball and aim line, is little different than the beginner driver getting fixated on his near surroundings.

A version of horizon thinking needs to take place. By standing well back from the shot looking down the line the brain is forced into a highly constrained view. A deviation of 1° at a distance of 5 feet equals an inch. A ball is a little over 2 inches wide so a single degree deviation would be nearly a half ball, when looked at from the butt end of a cue. A cue is roughly 5 feet long. Positioning and sighting the aim line from beyond the cue butt amounts to horizon aiming. From that perspective no ball is closer than 5 feet away, reducing its immediacy and the chances of becoming overly fixated. The whole shot can be seen from distance. The player who flops down is trying to aim and align from 2 feet away. Fixated on center ball because of conventional wisdom elevating its importance gives him another reason to be ball bound. There is a better way.

I find the line looking down the cue with my feet/body perpendicular the the aim line. As a right handed player the cue is off my right side. Putting the tip on the table when possible I start to take the stance. The right foot steps forward positioning the cue butt opposite my right hip. The hip angle changed as the left side lags. With my head over the cue almost like I am going to take a one handed stance my left foot starts to move forward. My head and body go directly ahead. My left foot stops just ahead of square. The bridge hand during this forward move can seek the cue line and a bridge position under the tip grounded cue. The chest moves ahead and down to the cue. The cue butt is well above the table giving clearance to rails and any other obstructions when possible. The sight line should still be looking directly down the cue with the cue in the bridge and touching the side of the chest, chin on the cue. In the process of moving directly forward the right arm and shoulder move directly ahead down the cue line. The feel at one point is like when taking a stance for shooting one handed, that alignment is sensed. When the chest moves to the cue, the elbow may fold towards the shoulder, letting the chest find the cue still running beside the body’s right side.

Avoid getting bound on the cue ball by using horizon sighting. By necessity the distance perspective narrows the aim line while keeping enough distance away to keep the ball from become a bound visual. In fact the cue line, the perception of being directly over and looking down the line should be in the foreground.

A caution. The effect of distancing needs to be countered. As someone walks away from you they appear smaller and we start to lose their visual details. You need to balance the avoiding of near fixation with the perspective of ball size. During the initial sighting and decision making, get close to the object ball, look for small details letting its size appear bigger perceptually due to closeness and comparison to small details like chalk, lint, surface blemishes etc. Holding onto the size and details of the object ball, while starting to set the cue on line from distance, lets the cue ball recede slightly, avoiding being ball bound on it. It’s part of the distance/horizon thinking. Drawing the object ball into the foreground with the cue ball lets the sense of interaction between them feel like it is about to happen right in front of you.

That is the choreography of the dance of the stance in detail. It happens quickly once the process is learned. The body learns what things look like and the body learns what it feels like when it is aligned. It figures out its most natural and efficient way to get there. I still start with my tip on the table helping keep the cue in line and step forward with the right foot first. The lagging left side when moved forward to a square hip position and ever so slightly beyond, let me move my whole upper body straight ahead and down somewhat. That square move ahead with head directly over the cue line feels one piece. There is no sense of my cue ever getting sideways to my body.

Last edited by Imac007; 02-19-2020 at 11:19 PM.
  
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02-20-2020, 06:08 AM

lmac007 thanks for the reply
but my question has to do with if the player in his shooting stance has his hips angled to the shot line and his head also with one eye slightly forward of the other
shouldnt he align (behind the shot before stepping forward)
from a similar position ?????
rather than square??
  
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02-20-2020, 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
lmac007 thanks for the reply
but my question has to do with if the player in his shooting stance has his hips angled to the shot line and his head also with one eye slightly forward of the other
shouldnt he align (behind the shot before stepping forward)
from a similar position ?????
rather than square??
Not necessarily. The adjustments into the stance can be made as the player is approaching and getting down on the shot. However, the player must keep his eye on the line of aim at all times during the approach, so the adjustments in settling into the shooting stance must be made by feel. It's not difficult to do as long as you've trained yourself to know what it feels like to be in the correct stance. Then you can find it without looking away from the line of aim.
  
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02-20-2020, 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Not necessarily. The adjustments into the stance can be made as the player is approaching and getting down on the shot. However, the player must keep his eye on the line of aim at all times during the approach, so the adjustments in settling into the shooting stance must be made by feel. It's not difficult to do as long as you've trained yourself to know what it feels like to be in the correct stance. Then you can find it without looking away from the line of aim.
Exactly. I described a process for getting the “vision center” and body aligned. And who cares if the eyes are angled. If you need the head angled to feel like you are looking directly down the cue and are seeing equal amounts of both sides of the shaft, do it. If you can get both your straight stroke and the visual perspective aligned, the position of the head and placement of the hips is inconsequential.

Annika Sörenstam did a clinic for women golfers. She took a wood and hit the ball 70 yards, then different distances. Then she stood sideways and at various angles sending the ball straight each time. Her point was to not get fixated on the club, the distance or the stance. The direction of the club head through impact and it’s speed were the objective and it didn’t matter how you get there.

If you can create a way to get aligned, even if it’s tedious to start, the body and the head will learn where they need to be to deliver the cue through the ball. Once learned the body will find its own way to get there from whatever position it finds itself.

As Fran noted “ the player must keep his eye on the line of aim at all times”. The other principle is that once the body learns the feel of the alignment, the body must move to the aligned cue. Moving the cue to the body because “it feels right” destroys the alignment that went before. The eyes must find the line of aim and stay there and then the body moves to the aligned cue where it needs to be.
  
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02-20-2020, 06:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Exactly. I described a process for getting the “vision center” and body aligned. And who cares if the eyes are angled. If you need the head angled to feel like you are looking directly down the cue and are seeing equal amounts of both sides of the shaft, do it. If you can get both your straight stroke and the visual perspective aligned, the position of the head and placement of the hips is inconsequential.

Annika Sörenstam did a clinic for women golfers. She took a wood and hit the ball 70 yards, then different distances. Then she stood sideways and at various angles sending the ball straight each time. Her point was to not get fixated on the club, the distance or the stance. The direction of the club head through impact and it’s speed were the objective and it didn’t matter how you get there.

If you can create a way to get aligned, even if it’s tedious to start, the body and the head will learn where they need to be to deliver the cue through the ball. Once learned the body will find its own way to get there from whatever position it finds itself.

As Fran noted “ the player must keep his eye on the line of aim at all times”. The other principle is that once the body learns the feel of the alignment, the body must move to the aligned cue. Moving the cue to the body because “it feels right” destroys the alignment that went before. The eyes must find the line of aim and stay there and then the body moves to the aligned cue where it needs to be.
thanks for the reply
i really appreciate your perspective.....
  
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02-20-2020, 07:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
The other principle is that once the body learns the feel of the alignment, the body must move to the aligned cue. Moving the cue to the body because “it feels right” destroys the alignment that went before. The eyes must find the line of aim and stay there and then the body moves to the aligned cue where it needs to be.
this makes me think of my own alignment routine
I've heard from several folks walk into the shot/cue
don't get down until you're ready to shoot
but often, I don't know what it looks like until I'm down
so I get down, but if it doesn't look/feel right
I adjust my body (mostly my feet) until it does
if it looks or if I feel really off
I get up and start over

this process seems to work ok for me
but I don't think I see other folks do the same pre-shot shuffle
anyway, I think it's good that I'm actively trying to unify my body and cue
but can I improve my stance, I wonder?

separately, but related
a pal of mine showed me how to stand in a snooker way
locking one leg, while bending the other at the knee
and positioning the bent leg forward
leaning over the table with the back
interesting


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Most of sighting is done while standing not down
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Most of sighting is done while standing not down - 02-20-2020, 08:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
this makes me think of my own alignment routine
I've heard from several folks walk into the shot/cue
don't get down until you're ready to shoot
but often, I don't know what it looks like until I'm down
so I get down, but if it doesn't look/feel right
I adjust my body (mostly my feet) until it does
if it looks or if I feel really off
I get up and start over

this process seems to work ok for me
but I don't think I see other folks do the same pre-shot shuffle
anyway, I think it's good that I'm actively trying to unify my body and cue
but can I improve my stance, I wonder?

separately, but related
a pal of mine showed me how to stand in a snooker way
locking one leg, while bending the other at the knee
and positioning the bent leg forward
leaning over the table with the back
interesting
Think like a sniper. Take the cue and look down it from behind the butt, with the tip on the table in front of the ball. Then stoop somewhat and make sure it is pointed where you think it is. Adjust now.

Remember the driver learner, looking over the hood to the immediate road and over steering. Learning to drive to the lane well ahead is the adjustment needed. Getting down before getting lined up is like the learner looking over the hood at the immediate road. The sniper perspective is gone and the gunfighter shooting from the hip comes to mind. The problem for gunfighters has a label - Boot Hill.

My advice - holster that thing and get out your rifle.
  
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