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02-22-2020, 04:44 PM

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Originally Posted by 3kushn View Post
Just speculating the shoulder can't move as fast as the elbow/forearm...
The important difference is the ratio of grip hand movement to joint movement - a full arm movement doubles it.

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Imac007
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02-25-2020, 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
The important difference is the ratio of grip hand movement to joint movement - a full arm movement doubles it.

pj
chgo
Here is a link to a snooker coach demonstrating and talking about both styles. His analysis of the pendulum stroke being level throughout is incorrect. To keep the cue flat the elbow would need to drop during the backswing.

https://youtu.be/438vW9gkUYg

I like Dell Hills descriptions better.
  
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02-25-2020, 09:05 AM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Here is a link to a snooker coach demonstrating and talking about both styles. His analysis of the pendulum stroke being level throughout is incorrect. To keep the cue flat the elbow would need to drop during the backswing.
Yes, and then it has to rise and then drop again during the forward stroke.

But to be clear, the “full arm movement” I spoke of is neither a pendulum or piston stroke.

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02-25-2020, 02:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yes, and then it has to rise and then drop again during the forward stroke.

But to be clear, the ďfull arm movementĒ I spoke of is neither a pendulum or piston stroke.

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I agree. The model starts with a downward plane at address. From that address position, the cue is arced back like the first half of the pendulum stroke, fulfilling the snooker 4 point contact model. In theory the cue has now been drawn back in a straight line with the bridge and side of the chest constraining sideways movement. At the back, the cue plane is more elevated than is normal for a standard pendulum stroke. In theory the cue is vertically aligned with the shot line. In other words it is still lined up before moving forward. This is where the elbow starts down flattening the plane. While the elbow may lower slightly the entire arm is simply set in motion by the move.

A natural toss motion while standing uses the same dynamic. On the final back motion, in a toss, the elbow angle opens. Once the forward toss motion is initiated, the elbow remains open while the whole arm initiates the forward movement. The elbow now becomes part of a dynamic motion sensing the internally calibrated action needed to gauge velocity and trajectory, st the elbow closes.

You are absolutely correct, the whole arm stroke is neither a pendulum nor a piston stroke. Arm alignment is crucial to the stroke. That said once aligned it is harder to throw off line and allows a slower velocity to achieve the same momentum. From a motor skill perspective it should theoretically reduce errors.

The advocacy for a pendulum stroke is theoretical in nature as well. It starts with a level cue at address, and a vertical forearm at contact. The objective is a simple engine taking the cue through a level plane at contact. While it makes a good teaching model for neophytes, more advanced players need to realize that theory often doesnít translate into practice. Itís a good first step, but itís only AN ANALOGY. Itís like believing that a map is the actual road. A conceptual model is just a guide. When reality differs it can be a round hole/square peg scenario when context doesnít match the analogy. Stick to the analogy when it itís useful but be willing let it go when itís not.
  
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02-25-2020, 06:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
...a pendulum stroke...
...itís only AN ANALOGY.
Are you saying it's not physiologically possible or not an effective pool stroke? I think it's clearly both.

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02-26-2020, 04:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Are you saying it's not physiologically possible or not an effective pool stroke? I think it's clearly both.

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I’m saying that trying to sell a flat stroke model for the pendulum stroke flies in the face of reality and you don’t disagree. As to the possibility of a circular arc being able to produce a horizontal contact through impact the answer is yes. There is only a single point in the arc where it would be truly level, in theory. Most pros don’t use it to the exclusion of other strokes. That suggests that when viewed situationally players are finding other methods a better choice, for them. Even Ronnie O’Sullivan, often pointed at as an elbow drop example, sometimes uses a pendulum stroke. Watch when he has shorter stun shots or soft draws, a pendulum suits his purposes, on a case by case basis. Are you saying that the arm is a true pendulum or is it just an analogous description of the motion and path?

Last edited by Imac007; 02-26-2020 at 04:53 PM.
  
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02-27-2020, 03:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Iím saying that trying to sell a flat stroke model for the pendulum stroke flies in the face of reality and you donít disagree.
I donít know what that means.

Quote:
Are you saying that the arm is a true pendulum or is it just an analogous description of the motion and path?
Whatís a ďtrue pendulumĒ if not the motion and path?

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02-27-2020, 10:28 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I donít know what that means.


Whatís a ďtrue pendulumĒ if not the motion and path?

pj
chgo
The video link I posted of the snooker coach comparing stroke types talks about the flat stroke of the pendulum swing. As you noted trying to keep the cue flat involves dropping then lifting the elbow dynamics to keep it flat. The pendulum stroke is different.

A pendulum by definition is a weight suspended and responding only to the force of gravity. A description in words is not the actual thing. An analogy uses the word ďlikeĒ, that differentiates it from the actual thing. Itís a descriptive tool only.
  
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02-27-2020, 11:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
A pendulum by definition is a weight suspended and responding only to the force of gravity.
That and a properly executed pendulum pool stroke both move along identical paths, regardless of what powers them.

So I still don't get your point...

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