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12-29-2016, 09:04 AM

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Originally Posted by jasonlaus View Post
Yeah I've stopped in a few times, not for the tourney though, just hitting some balls into the rails

Might get over there today or tomorrow....maybe

I'll be leaving in a few day for about 4 months - work

The name Fargorate has kinda grown on me since the first time I saw it, kinda like it now, and couldn't really imagine it being called anything else lol.

There are a few products I will never try because of the name or their commercials, Mentos comes to mind, also Skittles, cause of that nasty commercial.

So, you are correct, some people won't like the name and will "hate/dislike" the product because of it(not saying that's the case with you).

Have a great new year!
Jason
Give me a PM when you get back and let's go hit some balls. Triple Nines is about 30mins south of me. I'm more in the area of Top Hat and the Green Room.


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12-29-2016, 09:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Icon of Sin View Post
All of your examples in your first paragraph are just proving my point when I said name it something that has no associations at all. MPRate or PageRate would have even been much better names in my opinion.

I really don't care how my posts are taken, whether serious or in jest. Most of my posts are usually sarcastic. These last few were not. I'm just a little fish in a really big pond. I understand that my opinion doesn't matter and nor should it. Just felt like expressing thinking that others might agree. Not saying I'm right and I'm not saying I was trying to help. I was simply "just sayin..."

I respectfully concede the argument as I don't want any trouble. I understand that people like the rating system because it is a good rating system, I never said it wasnt.


No association? Fargo Billiards, Fargo, ND


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12-29-2016, 09:18 AM

What is the purpose of fargorate? Is it's sole purpose that pros wont be able to compete in amateur events?


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12-29-2016, 09:25 AM

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Originally Posted by robsnotes4u View Post
No association? Fargo Billiards, Fargo, ND


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I'm a pool player for almost 20 years and I didn't know there was a Fargo Billiards because I'm on the other side of the country.

And my whole argument about the rating system was against naming it after the town... It already has a huge association with a very successful movie and now popular TV Show. I said that in my first post.

I just asked a friend of mine (who doesn't play pool at all and doesnt know a damn thing about the game) what was the first thing he thought of when he sees the word Fargo. His response "a bad movie". Taste is subjective. I just asked a co-worker the same thing, he said "the movie".

On a side note after looking it up, it really looks like an incredible pool hall and the website is very well done.

I said in a previous post that I respectfully concede. It should ultimately be called whatever the creator wants it called and if that is FargoRate then so be it.


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12-29-2016, 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon of Sin View Post
I'm a pool player for almost 20 years and I didn't know there was a Fargo Billiards because I'm on the other side of the country.



And my whole argument about the rating system was against naming it after the town... It already has a huge association with a very successful movie and now popular TV Show. I said that in my first post.



I just asked a friend of mine (who doesn't play pool at all and doesnt know a damn thing about the game) what was the first thing he thought of when he sees the word Fargo. His response "a bad movie". Taste is subjective. I just asked a co-worker the same thing, he said "the movie".



On a side note after looking it up, it really looks like an incredible pool hall and the website is very well done.



I said in a previous post that I respectfully concede. It should ultimately be called whatever the creator wants it called and if that is FargoRate then so be it.


Funny you bring up the movie. I lived in Fargo for twenty five years, just moved. I have talked to people all over on the phone, when I mention Fargo the first thing in the conversation is the movie..

A good laugh, and the big question, "do they really talk like that?"

My answer, is always yes.

A great icebreaker.

Since you love pool you should make a trip to Fargo Billiards, you will not be disappointed



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12-29-2016, 10:01 AM

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Originally Posted by Icon of Sin View Post
...

I just asked a friend of mine (who doesn't play pool at all and doesnt know a damn thing about the game) what was the first thing he thought of when he sees the word Fargo. His response "a bad movie". Taste is subjective. I just asked a co-worker the same thing, he said "the movie".

...
Yet ask 1000 more than casual pool players and 99% will know what you're talking about. That's called branding. Every brand starts somewhere. I think Mike would love it if in the future it became a brand name become generic like Kleenex or q-tips.

We should all be thankful that Mike wasn't in Dubuque... or maybe he should have been... Do Bee Que rating has a ring to it!


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12-29-2016, 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon of Sin View Post
I'm a pool player for almost 20 years and I didn't know there was a Fargo Billiards because I'm on the other side of the country.

And my whole argument about the rating system was against naming it after the town... It already has a huge association with a very successful movie and now popular TV Show. I said that in my first post.

I just asked a friend of mine (who doesn't play pool at all and doesnt know a damn thing about the game) what was the first thing he thought of when he sees the word Fargo. His response "a bad movie". Taste is subjective. I just asked a co-worker the same thing, he said "the movie".

On a side note after looking it up, it really looks like an incredible pool hall and the website is very well done.

I said in a previous post that I respectfully concede. It should ultimately be called whatever the creator wants it called and if that is FargoRate then so be it.
I am from New York ;-)

The first name for what is now "Fargo Ratings" was INB (InterNational 9-Ball) ratings. That is the name I used in the 2002 Billiards Digest Article in which I described the optimization process and analyzed the World 9-Ball event in Cardiff Wales. (see a snapshot below).

Since then I have thought a lot more about naming. The best "brand" names, imo are ones that are easy to say and easy to remember: GOOGLE, AMEX, NATO, VISA, HONDA. So two syllables with hard consonants are good.

So I long ago moved away from "International 9-Ball" and other names of that Ilk. Naming something that tries to convey expansiveness is a mistake, imo-- Ultimate, Universal, World... these are cheap words. I prefer a simple name and let the idea spread...
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12-29-2016, 10:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Icon of Sin View Post
Give me a PM when you get back and let's go hit some balls. Triple Nines is about 30mins south of me. I'm more in the area of Top Hat and the Green Room.
I'm in Fells Point, about a block from all the bars/restaraunts
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12-29-2016, 10:28 AM

How bout this? You have a core team of 5 very strong players on a team. Before league starts (BCA) they pick up 4 more guys on the roster. The 5 core guys are going to Vegas, the 4 they put on the roster before league started are not.

During the league year, the 4 picked up are constantly being rotated in so that only 1 or 2 of the core team plays each week. This allows the core 5 to get less wins, play less games, and keep their ratings at a much lower rate than if they had played like most teams, playing the core of the team most often, and only playing the alternates when needed.

When they go to Vegas, their true speed is much higher than their rating. For instance they may now stay in gold, where if they would have played all year together, their true ratings would have put them into platinum.

The other thing as I understand it, is that none of the scores from the BCA tourney last summer were put into the system. I don't understand why not, as this would truly give you an excellent idea of the true speed of most players. There ain't no sand bagging or alternating lesser players in for this thing.
  
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12-29-2016, 10:32 AM

If you think this is complicated try the USTA NTRP ratings.

A simple overview: It is pretty close to accurate but I haven't played USTA in many years so some info may not be perfect.

Your rating is published but the dynamic rating is not. The dynamic rating changes with each match. The computer takes both players in a singles match and determines how many games each should win in a set. If you win by a bigger or smaller margin than what the computer thinks the match should be, then your dynamic rating can go up or down. It is highly possible that your dynamic rating can go down even though you won the match because you didn't win by enough of a margin.

In a doubles match, it takes all 4 players into account. Your team could win a match and one players dynamic rating goes up while the teammates dynamic rating goes down.

The dynamic rating is kept secret in an attempt to curb sandbagging and manipulating your overall rating. If you knew you were about to get bumped up, you could throw a match to keep the dynamic from going up and causing the bump up in level.

Sandbagging is rampant in USTA leagues. Some websites can calculate your dynamic rating extremely close. It is also just as easy to make sure your matches almost always go to a third set\tiebreaker.

FargoRate seems to use different algorithms but I see no need for them to be published. Too many people could possibly use that info to figure out what they need to win a match by and not have their rating go up significantly.

JoeyM

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12-29-2016, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by onepocketron View Post
How bout this? You have a core team of 5 very strong players on a team. Before league starts (BCA) they pick up 4 more guys on the roster. The 5 core guys are going to Vegas, the 4 they put on the roster before league started are not.



During the league year, the 4 picked up are constantly being rotated in so that only 1 or 2 of the core team plays each week. This allows the core 5 to get less wins, play less games, and keep their ratings at a much lower rate than if they had played like most teams, playing the core of the team most often, and only playing the alternates when needed.



When they go to Vegas, their true speed is much higher than their rating. For instance they may now stay in gold, where if they would have played all year together, their true ratings would have put them into platinum.



The other thing as I understand it, is that none of the scores from the BCA tourney last summer were put into the system. I don't understand why not, as this would truly give you an excellent idea of the true speed of most players. There ain't no sand bagging or alternating lesser players in for this thing.


A lot of effort for what guarantees and lack of fun.

Explain how playing less games means their true speed is higher than their ratings.


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12-29-2016, 11:34 AM

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Originally Posted by onepocketron View Post
How bout this? You have a core team of 5 very strong players on a team. Before league starts (BCA) they pick up 4 more guys on the roster. The 5 core guys are going to Vegas, the 4 they put on the roster before league started are not.

During the league year, the 4 picked up are constantly being rotated in so that only 1 or 2 of the core team plays each week. This allows the core 5 to get less wins, play less games, and keep their ratings at a much lower rate than if they had played like most teams, playing the core of the team most often, and only playing the alternates when needed.

When they go to Vegas, their true speed is much higher than their rating. For instance they may now stay in gold, where if they would have played all year together, their true ratings would have put them into platinum.

The other thing as I understand it, is that none of the scores from the BCA tourney last summer were put into the system. I don't understand why not, as this would truly give you an excellent idea of the true speed of most players. There ain't no sand bagging or alternating lesser players in for this thing.
So they are gonna lose every week? Doesn't seem like a good plan to qualify for Vegas
Jason
  
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12-29-2016, 02:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Icon of Sin View Post
I never claimed to be a naming expert at all. I'm just saying that the name seems like it applied to something that is proprietary to Fargo and as someone not from Fargo, I would assume people not from Fargo the first thing they thing of is the movie and the accents.

Now like I said, I'm not a naming expert by any sense of the word, but if I was naming something that is related to an activity, I would want the name of it to either be related to said activity or have no meaning at all attached to it. Frankly, I think putting the word "rate" in the name is a great idea, but the first half being named after a town that is no way a hub for pool/billiards is just odd to me. Here are 2 examples of what I am saying:

1. OBcues. To this day I still don't know what OB stands for but I know it is a brand that was created for pool products as that is now what I associate the letters OB with. In the case of Fargo, I still associate it with a town in ND and a very successful and brilliant movie. The letters OB could have no conotation with pool but they also had no connotation with anything else before coming to pool.

2. Not being a naming expert I'm going to come up with one off the top of my head that will help with what I was saying with linking it to said activity. BilliardRate. Now it is definitely not a gem or clever or anything else like that by any means, nor would I ever expect FargoRate to be renamed to this and I'm sure that when you were thinking of names for your rating system that BilliardRate was probably one of the ones you thought off using as it is completely unimaginative and uninventive... however... what I see the name the first thing I thing of is Pool/Billiards and that this thing rates things in that activity, whether it is items, players, whatever...

I'm not bashing your system. I find it interesting really. I just think if you want to be taken seriously all around you are goingto need to come up with a better name. Let's say ESPN were broadcasting pool (I know this is a stretch so far) and they wanted to talk about a players skill... do you think they would be more apt to use a name like "BilliardRate" or "FargoRate" when talking about an official pool player rating system.

I'm a regular poster at Jimbo's forum and I have given him shit for the name of the site there. Traffic is slow there, but with the name JimboArmy, no one thinks of it as a pool website at all.
I do get what you are saying as well as the counter arguments.
If the product works, it will grow into a well known association with the name.

The ESPN example is really profound in that it brings up the marketing aspect of anything that will be associated with a mass audience.

The last thing you want is to mention something on air which creates a question that requires precious airtime to answer. "Fargo rate" creates that question "why fargo" whereas, for example, "IBR" or "international billiard rating" keeps the discussion on topic of the number statistic not the name. Also, an acronym is always catchy in sports talk. The acronym for fargo rating would be FR. When someone asks what does that mean, the answer then leads to another question. The acronym IBR, when told what it stands for, is self explanatory.

The latest billiards digest has an impressive article on the IPT and Kevin Trudeau, which highlights how the number one priority was marketing, from the chosen game (8 ball which didn't require any explanation of rules or questions created) to the name and logo.
  
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12-29-2016, 02:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Cardigan Kid View Post

The last thing you want is to mention something on air which creates a question that requires precious airtime to answer. "Fargo rate" creates that question "why fargo" whereas, for example, "IBR" or "international billiard rating" keeps the discussion on topic of the number statistic not the name. Also, an acronym is always catchy in sports talk. The acronym for fargo rating would be FR. When someone asks what does that mean, the answer then leads to another question. The acronym IBR, when told what it stands for, is self explanatory.
Precious air time? Are you sensationalizing this a bit? This isn't a football game. We are talking about pool. We have to pay people to fill the time with something because it's hard enough to watch on it's own. I don't think anyone is complaining when they have to be explained fargo rate for all of 13 seconds.


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12-29-2016, 03:35 PM

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Originally Posted by billiardthought View Post
Precious air time? Are you sensationalizing this a bit? This isn't a football game. We are talking about pool. We have to pay people to fill the time with something because it's hard enough to watch on it's own. I don't think anyone is complaining when they have to be explained fargo rate for all of 13 seconds.
Haha touche - you have a point, maybe I was being a bit sensational (maybe more hopeful that pro pool could be there someday)
I was speaking in terms of how the executives view programmed air time. They want to see more Mitch Laurence mentioning a paid advertiser of some sort instead of explanations of what does fargo mean, or what is a push out.

In terms of marketing, you would have to agree, IBR is catchy?
Or IPR....whatever it is, it belongs up there with RBIs and QBR
  
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