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Imac007
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07-17-2019, 07:49 PM

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Originally Posted by poolnut7879 View Post
Unconscious incompetence
Conscious incompetence
Conscious competence
Unconscious competence
I agree with those as the stages of learning and development. They can be applied to any skill or part of a skill. Management when practicing and competing during the playing season is important to understand. When we work on something we do two things. We need to bring the skill we are working on into consciousness. That singular focus exaggerates whatever is being worked on, in importance. Any undue focus can take attention away from other possibly important details. Competition preparation needs to have focus move to stage 4. That outward focus on bringing your best unconscious game to the table and keeping focused outward onto achieving outcomes is paramount. Keeping inward focused technique thoughts away from the competition can be difficult. It’s a matter of trusting that over all, practice will improve your game, and that you just must allow the unconscious game to emerge. That can be a struggle as recent work and thought processes fight for attention. You need triggers in place to kickstart your competition mindset.

The unconscious mind executes the shot but the conscious mind keeps us engaged with the uniqueness of each shot. That’s the paradox. The physical action needs to be unconsciously performed but the conscious mind notes the subtle differences and keys in engaging the player in the process.

Thanks for sharing. There will be plenty of players who can benefit by exploring that avenue. Do you have any specific skills you think they should work on to take to the unconscious competence level?

Last edited by Imac007; 10-29-2019 at 12:04 PM.
  
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07-17-2019, 08:03 PM

The fact is above all bar none is solid mechanics I donít care how good your mental concentration game is you got no chance of reaching any higher level with out that first itís like putting the cart in front of the horse period
After that has been established it breeds confidence and that brings success then you build on that

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Imac007
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07-17-2019, 08:17 PM

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Originally Posted by one stroke View Post
The fact is above all bar none is solid mechanics I don’t care how good your mental concentration game is you got no chance of reaching any higher level with out that first it’s like putting the cart in front of the horse period
After that has been established it breeds confidence and that brings success then you build on that

1
That is true from the standpoint of those who don’t have sound mechanics. But you can’t be a one trick pony pocketing balls from everywhere. That catches up with those who try. Anyone who can pocket everything and has tamed whitey has already learned the differences that make a difference in their game. It sounds like you are dismissing the mental game as a skill to be worked on. Why is it so far down on your importance list? Isn’t that what truly separates the top players? Don’t they all have solid mechanics? Something separates them. Poise, superior strategy, patience all act as separators sifting out the winners. Give us your set of skills that separate the best. The difference that makes a difference.

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evergruven
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07-17-2019, 08:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
I was just trying to make the point that not every shot is under ideal conditions. We get too close to the rail. We donít always navigate around the balls and hook ourselves or create cueing problems. The best players also face those problems but most of the time regroup and make the shot. The same with position. Getting dead straight by under or over cueing can turn an otherwise simple run out into a problem.

Iím trying to mine the minds of players trying to get better for a sense of what they feel would take them to the next level. The finer and finer distinctions is just one idea. A skier could make finer distinctions between the different feel of the air on his face with different turns but you can bet he wonít get better from getting in touch with those differences. The differences that make a difference was the discussion I was hoping would occur. Instead I got platitudes Instead of something thoughtful. Thanks for your response it shows that you gave a part some thought.

Iím beginning to think that most players have no idea what they need to do to get better. They think hitting more balls is the answer. There is nothing specific that they can build a plan around. This platform seems an ideal place for them to share ideas and help find the nuggets that help players. I personally think that what players need is usually different at different times. The development of a players game benefits from what is most relevant for them at the stage they are at. This forum should help connect players with what resonates with their current game. Teaching a beginner the intricacies of massŤ is an example of a mismatch.

There is no right or wrong answer only twist and turn on the journey to a better game.

Few want to share. I will continue to share, but Iíd like to find kindred travelers on the same road.
hey, you're the one that said "never divulge everything you know"
for real, I admire that you're reaching, digging for more..
I think there is a lot of both magic and science in hitting more balls, much we learn conscious and subconsciously.
and then of course, we can parse that down to drills, targeting strengths and weaknesses,
putting ourselves in positions to be challenged, giving ourselves opportunities to fail, and succeed.
I think before we consider efficacy, we should think first about priorities.
everybody says they want to improve, be better than they were the day before,
but this is a relative statement.
do you want to beat your bar, beat your city, beat your country?
do you just want to get to a place where you "feel good" about your game?
how "serious" are you about improving? how dedicated? how disciplined?
tcc had a point above, to the effect of "just put the balls in the hole"- there is wisdom there.
"keep it simple" can be a valuable approach, and if you want it bad enough,
and put a little work in, I think things are more likely to go your way,
things you might not even realize or have thought about..
those little things you allude to. they're there, but there's a lot to be said for doubling down on one's strengths,
spending time on what comes naturally, what we find easy to control,
and letting the rest fall into place.
the mind is crucial, but we must let it breathe. we must breathe.
time and space are also important..what if you don't have a table? too far to the bar?
what if you do have a table, but are up to your neck in it?
can you get better at pool without hitting a ball?
yes, yes you can...


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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07-17-2019, 08:27 PM

Too much pool science
Analysis paralysis

Put the ball in the hole


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Imac007
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07-17-2019, 08:49 PM

Evergruven
Thanks for the willingness to join the conversation and contribute. Every comment here is appropriate from a particular perspective. There is no analysis paralysis if you know the answers. Experts know what to do in most situations. Not knowing what to do causes over analysis, hesitation and a lack of commitment. Uncertainty lives with ignorance. Every player is at a stage in their development. I’m asking about how the advanced player might makes the transition to expert. Choosing the right differentiator can springboard a player, the wrong focus can put or keep him in the middle of the pack.
  
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Imac007
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07-17-2019, 09:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
"keep it simple" can be a valuable approach, and if you want it bad enough,
and put a little work in, I think things are more likely to go your way,
things you might not even realize or have thought about..
those little things you allude to. they're there, but there's a lot to be said for doubling down on one's strengths,
spending time on what comes naturally, what we find easy to control,
I especially love this part of what you wrote. Getting focused on what needs to be done and simply executing doesn’t tax the brain and can lead to a selflessness state they call the zone. Plus, of course motivation is paramount. And, the thing about doubling down on strengths is crucial for players preparing for any key competition. The focus on the practice table needs to shift from finding weaknesses then finding the details needed for strengthening, to a very different approach. The practice focus for big events is to make an inventory of strengths and then set up situations on the table where you can highlight those skills. It’s about polishing skills. Think about all the ways you can create situations that can play to your strengths. The idea too of focusing on what you can control. Hint: It’s not the opponent.

Last edited by Imac007; 07-17-2019 at 10:31 PM.
  
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07-17-2019, 11:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
It helps if the player knows what's actually possible. I've seen lots of impossible shots attempted, usually in what they are trying to do with the cue ball. Like shots Efren couldn't make.
I really like this concept and it was driven into me by watching so many hours of AccuStats matches. Billy and Grady would discuss several options to some tricky shot and Billy would say "Well Grady, I don't think that shot is available". For them, the word 'available' indicated whether a certain CB path was physically possible.
  
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07-17-2019, 11:16 PM

The OP asked about mechanics.

The first lesson I ever took was RandyG's 3-day class, which focuses mainly on mechanics. After I practiced that and got my mechanics and pre-shot routine down, I took weekly lessons for three years from Bert Kinister. Bert is a king at devising drills that teach important concepts of pocketing, CB control, and strategy.

Later I felt really lucky to have stumbled into this sequence: I learned mechanics. Then I did countless drills and studied pattern play and strategy. Good way to go.
  
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evergruven
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07-17-2019, 11:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Think about all the ways you can create situations that can play to your strengths. The idea too of focusing on what you can control. Hint: Itís not the opponent.
yep..most folks think to improve you *must* improve your weaknesses directly..
while there is truth to this, often you can improve weaknesses by focusing on the strong part of your game.
it sounds crazy but not only will focusing on your strengths give you a great shot at fast improvement by itself,
but over time, you might also find your weaknesses shored up as a result.

sort of related, I'm now reminded of a quote/question about success-
do you love winning more than you hate losing or vice versa?
we all hate to miss a shot, lose a game or a match, but when you succeed/win, what's your reaction?
personally, I bemoan losses way more than I celebrate wins, but I'm currently working to balance that out more.
maybe kind of a way to grow out the ol' strengths..


A billiard table is that richest of metaphors,
by turns a theatre, an altar, touchstone, gauntlet,
ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
a verdant landscape for balls to scatter and rest in meaningful synchronicity,
a classroom, a karma dance, mirror of moods, a guide and trusted friend...

-- from grissim's "billiards"
  
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you only get to hit that white ball
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you only get to hit that white ball - 07-18-2019, 02:53 AM

You only get to hit the white ball with your stick. Focus on that ball almost to the exclusion of the object balls. When you plan a shot properly it is impossible to make half of it. Either you will miss shape and the pocket or you will make both.

You can cut an eight and a quarter to eight and a half inch circle out of a sheet of typing paper. Do that, and when practicing put that circle down before every shot to show where you are putting the cue ball. After you get above 90%, cut a seven inch circle. Once to ninety percent, keep cutting a smaller circle. Don't stop until you get to a three inch or smaller circle. When you can put the cue ball in a three or four inch circle consistently you will find that the object balls "have to fall in the holes". What annoyed me the most was making half of the shot, either pocketing the ball and missing shape or making shape and not pocketing the ball. That meant I had made a mental error and the shot was doomed before I ever hit the cue ball.

I spent two to three years focusing on cue ball control, thousands of hours. At the end of that time I could play on seven foot to snooker tables and not embarrass myself. While I relaxed a little after that time period the cue ball has been my primary interest ever since then. That most particularly includes when shooting the money ball. Pick a spot for the cue ball and shoot the money ball just like every other balls. That went a long ways towards keeping me from missing the money ball.

Everyone's mileage may vary of course, not just one way to gain pool skills. Chasing the cue ball worked for me.

Hu
  
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07-18-2019, 05:56 AM

I like this thread double O. The examples you gave of people mastering their sports were all reactive type activities. That’s where I do my best without a doubt. I was in a line of work/lifestyle that demanded attention, quick and accurate reactions, commitment to a decision. For me that kind of stuff came naturally, I never liked any of the common American sports but I could step up and play any at a decent level in a short time..I might be a bit small for football though.

Pool is so different it’s unreal. Everything is just sitting there. No quick reactions will be forced from your subconscious. You have all the time in the world to make a mistake.

I definitely practice awkward cueing and I break ugly racks and see what I can do. I set donuts out on tricky racks that I break and I’ll practice that layout until I can run it or find the spot to play a lockup safe. I think these things help me a lot but they are not necessarily taking me to the next level. For me the next level would be more of a mental thing. Staying out of my own way, not sabotaging myself with doubts, keeping in that perfect mind set. It’s a lot easier reacting and responding to something outside yourself than it is to make something happen with stationary objects.
  
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BC21
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07-18-2019, 06:27 AM

The brain is truly remarkable. Expertise in any skill is derived from successful repetition of actions, programming your brain.

Technically, learning and skill development is the result of synaptic connections, the firing/activation of neurons connecting within the brain, forming pathways that allow us to quickly recognize, remember, and perform complex tasks. More repetition leads to more permanent pathways, so the more you do something consistently over and over and over again you are essentially paving these pathways.

Synaptic connections aren't exactly permanent though. These pathways have some plasticity, the ability to be changed or rewired with changing conditions. In other words, good and bad habits are programmed in the same manner within the brain -- through repetition -- but neither are permanent. You can always change the pathways to suit your desires, but it takes consistent repetition of the actions you wish to master.

Last edited by BC21; 07-18-2019 at 06:32 AM.
  
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07-18-2019, 06:54 AM

Be Relaxed.
Be Focused.
Trust Your Stroke...
  
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Thinking about what you have direct control over
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Thinking about what you have direct control over - 07-18-2019, 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
You only get to hit the white ball with your stick. Focus on that ball almost to the exclusion of the object balls. When you plan a shot properly it is impossible to make half of it. Either you will miss shape and the pocket or you will make both.

...What annoyed me the most was making half of the shot, either pocketing the ball and missing shape or making shape and not pocketing the ball. That meant I had made a mental error and the shot was doomed before I ever hit the cue ball.

I spent two to three years focusing on cue ball control, thousands of hours. ...That most particularly includes when shooting the money ball. Pick a spot for the cue ball and shoot the money ball just like every other balls. That went a long ways towards keeping me from missing the money ball.

Everyone's mileage may vary of course, not just one way to gain pool skills. Chasing the cue ball worked for me.

Hu
This is what this thread should be about. For Hu, the finer and finer nuances of how and where cue ball contact is made and where both balls are destined to end up, is a whole. He doesnít tell us that speed is also an integral part of that execution and that in some cases he has multiple places he can hit the cue ball with different speeds and paths to the pocket and or final position. After thousands of hours his decisions are at a much more nuanced level than 90į for stun and 30į for ľ to ĺ ball. He knows the difference between a cue ball that kicked and a skid. He understands that a ball with any kind of spin is less susceptible to either. His connection to the cue and cue ball are different by now.

In psychology there is a concept called extended self. The idea is that we are sensing more than our bodies. We pick up a plate at a buffet and then navigate to our table past numerous obstacles with an extended awareness of our body and the plate as one. Our cars become extensions when we stick one leg in then another and put it on like a pair of pants or shoes, all extensions. Then we play dodge Ďem in traffic as one.

The cue and cue ball become extensions when we let them. I choose to experience the cue and ball as one sometimes. When near the rail the front of the ball is not blocked but the face is. When I see a straight in shot I zero in on both contact points and how they need to mesh. The cue extends as one to the front of the cue ball.

Thanks for the help. This type of sharing will only act as a teacher for those at the stage where it can emerge as such, for them.
  
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