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garczar
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08-28-2019, 09:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
By "swinging his cue" do you mean "swooping/swiping" in a curved stroke?

Then is "parallel" english any time you don't swoop/swipe (any time you stroke straight, even if it's at an angle to the shot line)?

pj
chgo
Sorry. I meant bhe, not a swoop. To me parallel is just that, moving your whole cue parallel left/right of your straight at it stroke. Brings a lot of squirt into play unless your using an ld shaft.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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08-28-2019, 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by garczar View Post
Sorry. I meant bhe, not a swoop.
And by BHE you mean angling the cue with BHE and then stroking straight along that angled line?

Quote:
To me parallel is just that, moving your whole cue parallel left/right of your straight at it stroke. Brings a lot of squirt into play unless your using an ld shaft.
And misses all shots except those where swerve (a variable depending on distance, speed, conditions, butt elevation, etc.) happens to exactly counteract squirt, right?

pj
chgo
  
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Bob Jewett
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08-28-2019, 09:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
... When parallel english is used ...
I have seen at least two definitions of "parallel english". Which definition are you using?


Bob Jewett
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garczar
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08-28-2019, 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
And by BHE you mean angling the cue with BHE and then stroking straight along that angled line?


And misses all shots except those where swerve (a variable depending on distance, speed, conditions, butt elevation, etc.) happens to exactly counteract squirt, right?

pj
chgo
Just adjust aim for the deflection. Hit enough ball with same cue and its not a big deal. Until i learned what bhe/fhe were i always made a full cue shift. Just figured it out by playing. Call it whatever you want but that's i grew up playing.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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08-28-2019, 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by garczar View Post
Just adjust aim for the deflection. Hit enough ball with same cue and its not a big deal. Until i learned what bhe/fhe were i always made a full cue shift. Just figured it out by playing. Call it whatever you want but that's i grew up playing.
OK. I'm still not sure what you mean by "parallel", but moving along...

pj
chgo
  
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garczar
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08-28-2019, 10:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
OK. I'm still not sure what you mean by "parallel", but moving along...

pj
chgo
Really? Ok, i would move both bridge hand and cue over parallel to original shot line. I call that a parallel shift. Jeez. I'm done with this nonsense. Bye.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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08-28-2019, 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by garczar View Post
Really? Ok, i would move both bridge hand and cue over parallel to original shot line. I call that a parallel shift.
OK, but it can't work except on very specific shots where swerve perfectly counteracts squirt - or unless you make an angle change too.

In fact, I think when most people use the "parallel" term they mean they're just adjusting their stick's angle "by feel" (not using BHE or FHE or a "measured" combination of the two). They may even be unaware they're doing it, and that's why I don't like the term - it disguises what's really happening.

pj
chgo
  
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garczar
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08-28-2019, 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
OK, but it can't work except on very specific shots where swerve perfectly counteracts squirt - or unless you make an angle change too.

In fact, I think when most people use the "parallel" term they mean they're just adjusting their stick's angle "by feel" (not using BHE or FHE or a "measured" combination of the two). They may even be unaware they're doing it, and that's why I don't like the term - it disguises what's really happening.

pj
chgo
You could be dead-on. I just know it 'felt' like a parallel shift 'cause i moved both my bridge and cue over. Could'a been some angle involve but wasn't too into hyper examining what was going on. I just just adjusted my aiming point and shifted over. Whatever this may be called i made a s%^tload of ball with it.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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08-28-2019, 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by garczar View Post
You could be dead-on. I just know it 'felt' like a parallel shift 'cause i moved both my bridge and cue over. Could'a been some angle involve but wasn't too into hyper examining what was going on. I just just adjusted my aiming point and shifted over. Whatever this may be called i made a s%^tload of ball with it.
Yes, I think that's how most interpret it. Whatever works, of course - I just wish the terminology was more reflective of the reality so noobs aren't misled (unless they want to be, of course).

Thanks,

pj
chgo
  
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08-28-2019, 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
What’s “parallel English”?
For those interested, both the standard definition and the most common misinterpretation of the phrase are explained in detail on the parallel english resource page, along with links to supporting resources.

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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08-28-2019, 12:18 PM

I never understood the term parallel English until I saw a video about B/F HE, I had never even considered trying something like that. I did set up a few shots with Dr Dave’s system and it actually worked but it felt so unnatural since I’ve not spent time with it.

So it seems answered already but I think of parallel English as just when I naturally get down on a shot knowing I’m going to use low right so my aim point needs to be here and I’m going to throw the ball there in the pocket so when I’m down on the shot my bridge and grip hands are still in line, just as if I was shooting a stop shot. Opposed to setting up like a stop shot and then moving my bank hand over 20% or whatever and now my bridge and grip hand are no longer parallel

Lol so I looked at dr Dave’s link there and I basically paraphrased his incorrect explanation for parallel English. I’m not a technical type so don’t judge

Last edited by JazzyJeff87; 08-28-2019 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Dr Dave ;)
  
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Parallel english clarification
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Imac007
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Parallel english clarification - 08-28-2019, 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
What’s “parallel English”?

pj
chgo
I believe that pj has much more sinister motives than stated here, by others. He is interested in the truth, not dogma or misunderstanding or misinterpretation. Dr. Dave has weighed in with a link to his resource page on parallel english. The usual use of the term starts with an orientation at the ghost ball line through center on the cue ball. When the cue is shifted parallel to that line, that is the parallel english I claim has been wrongly used as the reference for calculating the effects of english. If all angles in 1° increments were represented in relationship to the shot line, only the parallel english line has a direct relationship to the actual physics force line. It’s like a stopped clock, right in only two contexts, once to the right of center here and once to the left, instead of twice a day.

From: Amateur Physics for the Amateur Pool Player Third Edition by Ron Shepard

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Physics doesn’t care about your intentions or what target line you choose. It only looks at what direction the force comes from, where that is in relation to the center of mass, where on the surface the ball is contacted and what friction variables are there at the moment of contact. The distance between the F line and the R line determine the moment or torque arm distance used in physics calculations.

pj knows this and knows that the deflection line always radiates from the contact point through the center of mass. The R line always parallels the F line. The R line is only the same line as the target line if the cue is shifted parallel. When the cue line diverges from the target line by pivoting from either hand, it is no longer parallel to the target line and the R line and F will now be calculated from parallel to the new cue direction. Physics doesn’t care about your pivot origin, only the actual direction the cue is traveling on at impact.

I will reply to each post in turn as time permits, provided the topic has not already been addressed.
  
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08-28-2019, 01:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I don't believe there's any amount of sidespin that doesn't generate some squirt. It may be offset exactly by swerve at some distances/speeds/elevations/conditions, but that's a variable, not something that's "automatic" for small amounts of sidespin.

If "parallel english" means "cue parallel to the shot line", I think it's an unrealistic and misleading term - because it's so rarely true, it obscures the physical facts of squirt and how we compensate for it, and it encourages habitual practices that limit our games.

pj
chgo
With LD shafts you can line straight up through ccb to your desired cb target/aim, then move the entire cue over to apply a little side spin, like a quarter tip of spin, keeping the cue as parallel as possible to your initial line, and the cb squirt will usually be insignificant. It all depends on the end mass of the shaft.

There are two forces at work during an off-center cb hit.
One force is the weight of the entire cue stick moving along the stroke line. If hit dead center cb then the full weight of the cue simply shoves straight through the cb. At 6oz the cb doesn't put up much resistance and has no effect on the direction of the cue tip or shaft end mass. An off-center hit, however, allows the 6oz mass of cb to influence the path of the tip/shaft because the shaft is forced sideways as the ball begins to rotate. This sideways force, combined with the normal directional force of the stroke, is what determines the path of the cb after being struck. I know you already know all of this, so I'll get to my point....

There are shots where just the right amount of side force and a parallel cue directional force (parallel to the aim line) seem to cancel each out. It could very well be due to a little swerve occurring at the same time, but it doesn't matter. All that matters is knowing that it works without having to consciously make it work by overthinking any aiming compensation or adjustments.
That's what I mean by "automatic".

Oh, and "habitual practices", as you say, aren't always bad. It's how we develop a unique feel for certain shots. I don't care if it's swerve or a tiny massé or magic....if I hit a shot a certain way and get consistent positive results, I'd call that a good thing.
  
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Understanding your frustration
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Understanding your frustration - 08-28-2019, 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
PJ is of course playing games. He is well aware of what is referred to as parallel english. He has also maintained for decades that the angle the cue stick hits the cue ball doesn't matter, only the location. After thirty years most have given up on trying to change his firmly held opinions although it is easy to demonstrate the lack of truth by exaggerating the angle.

The location of contact one tip to the side of centerline can be a very commonly and successfully used shot, or by moving the bridge and exaggerating the angle it can be an impossible to shoot successfully miscue. Yet PJ's claim has always been that the angle doesn't matter, only the location.

Having ran this rabbit many times before with PJ I'll sit this one out other than saying you are absolutely right about lines of force. Hitting exactly the same spot with backhand english, fronthand english and parallel offset english will each give different results. It is also possible to combine multiple forms of english in one shot with good results sometimes.

I never tried front hand english until after using either parallel or back hand english for many years. Seems odd and I never used it long enough for it to become natural but because the angle is less severe it seems superior to back hand english. I usually use parallel english, just a matter of what I am most comfortable with.

All three work, combinations of English work. Poking another sacred cow but something your post makes obvious you will understand, each form of english lets you hit a different distance out from centerline before a miscue occurs when the target line is used as reference.

Since the lines of force are different and the force that can be applied without a miscue remain the same I have suspected that the angle the cue ball is hit and the distance that the cue ball can be hit without miscueing can only apply the same amount of force through the true vertical line of the cue ball from top center to contact patch, the amount of spin possible on the cue ball remains the same.

I have never seen this physically proven by testing with a robot to eliminate the human factor and have long wanted to see it proven if any of the three types of english or any combination can gain a slight advantage. I think not but that remains unproven as far as I know. I don't wholly trust mathematical proof of such things as I have seen the formulas of similar calculations leave out small variables that affect real world outcomes enough to render the calculations false.

Hu
The problem is with most points of argument, perspective is the determinant of right or wrong. The thing is that pj is right, because all perspectives he was commenting on had to do with point of contact and cueing direction. Target line is a different direction except when parallel english is concerned. All deflection lines regardless of approach line go along a line from the contact point to the center of mass. The Ron Shepard diagram shows that the deflection line is a constant but the other elements, the direction of original force, the angle relative to the center of mass, the plane the R sits on all vary. The R line and F line remain in a parallel proximity to one another, a second constant. PJ is right because physics doesn’t care what direction the original cueing line is on unless the miscue limit is passed then the coefficient of friction part of the diagram becomes relevant. In that case, forces are dissipated and calculated under different circumstances. That is beyond the scope of the spin dynamics intended under the topic.

You are recognizing that the ball does not follow the path from contact point to center of mass and that the ball, despite deflection, has fairly predictable direction related to the original direction of actual force. You are both right. The truth lies in the middle after the variables have each had their say in the eventual force direction. Torque line length determines the actual amount of side, not tips of english. The length of the torque line is determined primarily by the original direction of the cue in relationship to its perpendicular distance from the center of mass, not arbitrary cue tips on the surface. If I use the original target line, move 2 cue tips to the right, then move the cue butt to the right pivoting the cue line back to the center of mass, my tip is offset from the target line by 2 tips but will apply no english on the cue ball. PJ would also be correct, the contact point to center of mass, the R line, the F line and the cue would all lie on the same line and the deflection would calculate to zero.

Last edited by Imac007; 08-29-2019 at 12:15 AM.
  
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08-28-2019, 01:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
There is a problem in perception because the ghost ball line, not the paralleling line through the center, has been used as the reference. Using that as the perspective has all perceived lines of english radiating from or paralleling the ghost ball line. Using those diverging lines the game has missed a whole range of angles with side, not currently used in play. The implications are huge.
I'm still unsure what point you're trying to make. If you want to to discuss pool physics, then you are not presenting anything that Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, Mike Page, and Ron Shepard have not already talked about for years/decades.

If you're attempting to propose that a better understanding of the physics of side spin will help the average pool player, as it seems from the quote above, then I disagree. None of this stuff will help the average pool player.
  
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