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Imac007
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08-29-2019, 12:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think it's better to wait for Imac007 to explain what he meant. In your diagram you are moving the cue stick parallel a dime and a half.

And when you pivot back half (except it's not half in your diagram), do you pivot about your bridge hand?
BTW. I want to thank those who have been reading this and commenting, for your patience. Without the ability to demonstrate with a table and balls, descriptions can be unclear. I’ve tried to go back and clean up some of my posts. This area of exploration and findings have been put together over the last 2 years or so. Bear with me the benefits and use potentials are many and varied. And commenters who claim there is nothing really new are also right. The application of the knowledge is what is novel. On the shoulders of giants...

Last edited by Imac007; 08-29-2019 at 01:41 AM.
  
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08-29-2019, 12:51 AM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Y ... NONE of the present parallel english, FHE or BHE methods of applying side converge back towards the shot line, they ALL diverge. ...
Let's start with this. Please explain what you mean by these terms. If you can provide a diagram, that should help. I have no idea what you mean by converge and diverge in this context.


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Imac007
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08-29-2019, 01:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Let's start with this. Please explain what you mean by these terms. If you can provide a diagram, that should help. I have no idea what you mean by converge and diverge in this context.
The simple definition I have is that diverging in this context means pointing away from and converging means pointing towards. Starting at the ghost ball line BHE and FHE point the cue away from the reference target line. I call the english that points away divergent. When the cue line points back towards the target line, I call it convergent.

Thanks for the help. Defining terms helps people understand.

Last edited by Imac007; 08-29-2019 at 01:39 AM.
  
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wondering
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ShootingArts
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wondering - 08-29-2019, 06:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Just so you won't feel too bad, I'll admit that I have the same problem.


Bob,

What he is describing is one thing, what he means may be completely another. He seems to be describing setting the bridge up in a completely different location than normal.

I have been seriously considering the likelihood that lmac = pj = lmac but I haven't made any effort to find out.

Hu
  
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strmanglr scott
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08-29-2019, 06:06 AM

Glad I got out the extra large bag of popcorn for that OP.

Carry on.


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08-29-2019, 06:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
The simple definition I have is that diverging in this context means pointing away from and converging means pointing towards. Starting at the ghost ball line BHE and FHE point the cue away from the reference target line. I call the english that points away divergent. When the cue line points back towards the target line, I call it convergent.

Thanks for the help. Defining terms helps people understand.
Okay, I think I finally have an inkling as to what you're describing.

Assuming the effects of throw and swerve are ignored, and your only goal is to simply compensate for squirt (deflection) such that the OB hits the precise ghost ball location, then every type of side would be "divergent", according to your definition. Any type of "convergent" side, assuming the reference point is the ghost ball line, will never get the ball to the ghost ball location.

Do you agree, or am I misunderstanding something?
  
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  (#52)
erhino41
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08-29-2019, 06:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Everything he wrote, including the title of the thread, is specifically about using side spin.



pj

chgo
Yup, but it is still all about aiming. I've read every post and I already know what is being discussed here. Since you guys don't seem to mind this being in the wrong forum and it is mostly civil I don't really care.

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  (#53)
Patrick Johnson
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08-29-2019, 07:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Our fixation on the target line, when describing side, is only relevant when parallel english is used. In essence every type of side’s, force line, is parallel in nature, only that parallel line, doesn’t correlate to the target line.
When the cue is angled correctly to compensate for squirt, the direction of force through the CB (what you call the "force line") is parallel with the "target line". Since it's what propels the CB along the "target line", that must be true.

Are you saying something different?

pj
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  (#54)
Patrick Johnson
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08-29-2019, 07:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
I have been seriously considering the likelihood that lmac = pj = lmac
That's because you can't tell the difference between unintelligible and over your head.

pj
chgo

Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 08-29-2019 at 07:08 AM.
  
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over my head, under my head, it doesn't really matter!
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ShootingArts
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over my head, under my head, it doesn't really matter! - 08-29-2019, 07:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
That's because you can't tell the difference between unintelligible and over your head.

pj
chgo


A conversation can be over my head, then again it can be nonsense which is under my head. When people start using a different frame of reference than the rest of the world it is likely to be you or your first cousin. I like to look at the world from an unusual perspective once in awhile for the sake of humor. You do it as a way of life. I'm waiting to see how these convergent and divergent lines work out. Of course parallel english is already using a convergent path. all the rest are too. Because of the modest affects of spin on the object ball, the cue ball always has to strike it in very close to same place.

Hu
  
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08-29-2019, 08:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Of course parallel english is already using a convergent path. all the rest are too. Because of the modest affects of spin on the object ball, the cue ball always has to strike it in very close to same place.
If I interpret Imac007's definitions of convergent/divergent correctly, then pure parallel english is neither convergent nor divergent, but sits in the middle of the two cases (because the cue is neither pointing towards or away from the ghost ball line, but is parallel to it). But given finite squirt, we all know that the resulting CB path will not follow the ghost ball line with pure parallel english. Therefore, from the starting point of parallel english, the cue must "diverge" (point away from the ghost ball line) in order to compensate for any squirt. So every cue line must diverge and there are no "convergent" cases, assuming you want to send the CB along the ghost ball line.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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08-29-2019, 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
That's because you can't tell the difference between unintelligible and over your head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
A conversation can be over my head, then again it can be nonsense which is under my head.
Yep, those. If you could tell the difference you wouldn't be confused about identities.

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Bob Jewett
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08-29-2019, 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
The simple definition I have is that diverging in this context means pointing away from and converging means pointing towards. Starting at the ghost ball line BHE and FHE point the cue away from the reference target line. I call the english that points away divergent. When the cue line points back towards the target line, I call it convergent. ...
So, by a converging side spin situation, I think you mean the following: the cue stick is placed to give some amount of sidespin and the line of the cue stick is pointed in a way that it crosses the cue ball-ghost ball line of centers (which I think is what you call the "reference target line") in front of the shooter.

Is that correct?

If so, we the following basic definitions:

Name:  CropperCapture[363].png
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Name:  CropperCapture[364].png
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Size:  3.5 KB

And here is a typical "diverging" shot with side spin.

Name:  CropperCapture[367].png
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Size:  10.8 KB

And here is a typical "parallel english" shot.

Name:  CropperCapture[368].png
Views: 70
Size:  10.1 KB

Do you agree with these diagrams and definitions?


Bob Jewett
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  (#59)
Imac007
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08-29-2019, 10:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by strmanglr scott View Post
Glad I got out the extra large bag of popcorn for that OP.

Carry on.
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Imac007
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08-29-2019, 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
So, by a converging side spin situation, I think you mean the following: the cue stick is placed to give some amount of sidespin and the line of the cue stick is pointed in a way that it crosses the cue ball-ghost ball line of centers (which I think is what you call the "reference target line") in front of the shooter.

Is that correct?

If so, we the following basic definitions:

Attachment 528423

Attachment 528424

And here is a typical "diverging" shot with side spin.

Attachment 528425

And here is a typical "parallel english" shot.

Attachment 528427

Do you agree with these diagrams and definitions?
A resounding YES.
BHE and FHE both pivot from the ghost ball line.
The ghost ball line extends past the cue ball to the object ball.
The convergent side pivot as I described it would put the tip on the ghost ball line between the two balls. Now a simple pivot so that the new cue line crosses just a dimes width distance to the side of the cb center of mass, means neither the bridge hand nor the grip hand are on the ghost ball line, after the pivot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Bob,

What he is describing is one thing, what he means may be completely another. He seems to be describing setting the bridge up in a completely different location than normal.

I have been seriously considering the likelihood that lmac = pj = lmac but I haven't made any effort to find out.

Hu
So my explanation got through to at least one reader. And, poor pj, being maligned and persecuted because I defended his deflection line physics, sorry guy. But like he said when youíre out on runway #5, you know the place where things keep going over your head, nothing makes sense.

Last edited by Imac007; 08-29-2019 at 10:59 AM.
  
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