Johan Ruijsink stroke theory
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Johan Ruijsink stroke theory - 12-14-2019, 02:36 PM

There is an article in Billiard Digest that Johan has a theory on 'Elbow Drop'. Does anyone know what that is?


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12-16-2019, 09:49 AM

The article is in Billiard Digest, October 2019, page 55, article on Tyler Styer...'Johan taught me about elbow drop with the stroke'.


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12-16-2019, 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennesseejoe View Post
The article is in Billiard Digest, October 2019, page 55, article on Tyler Styler...'Johan taught me about elbow drop with the stroke'.
I tried looking for the article when you first posted it, but couldn't find it. I searched what you just posted above, but can't navigate through any of the pages. I'm definitely interested in reading it, but can't find it. Do you have to have a subscription or am I just a dummy? lol
  
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12-16-2019, 01:39 PM

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Originally Posted by KenRobbins View Post
I tried looking for the article when you first posted it, but couldn't find it. I searched what you just posted above, but can't navigate through any of the pages. I'm definitely interested in reading it, but can't find it. Do you have to have a subscription or am I just a dummy? lol
It was just a quote by Tyler in the paragraph titled...What was the best advice you received? There was no more information.

Yes. I have the subscription in front of me.

I am sorry ...my post did not explain this completely. I was just requesting more information from anyone.


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01-03-2020, 04:29 PM

https://youtu.be/qNQ3oXUk0Pg?t=9227
Check the elbow drop crime by Fedor on that one.
  
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01-05-2020, 07:42 PM

It seems to work for him....


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01-06-2020, 10:50 AM

I am also interested in that articule.

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01-06-2020, 11:08 AM

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Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
I am also interested in that articule.

randyg
Reference my post #2...It was a statement in Billiard Digest, however it was not stated how it was so important. I posted this in the 'Ask The Instuctor' forum and was hoping that someone could elaborate. The quote left me hanging....


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01-06-2020, 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennesseejoe View Post
Reference my post #2...It was a statement in Billiard Digest, however it was not stated how it was so important. I posted this in the 'Ask The Instuctor' forum and was hoping that someone could elaborate. The quote left me hanging....
Johan, from my understanding has a series of drills that teach all about when you need to drop your elbow. The drill is currently not taught here in the U S A but will be in the curriculum of an instructor i know when he resumes teaching.
  
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01-07-2020, 04:27 PM

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Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
Johan, from my understanding has a series of drills that teach all about when you need to drop your elbow. The drill is currently not taught here in the U S A but will be in the curriculum of an instructor i know when he resumes teaching.
\

Thanks...keep us posted.


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Stroke or swing?
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Stroke or swing? - 01-30-2020, 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennesseejoe View Post
The article is in Billiard Digest, October 2019, page 55, article on Tyler Styler...'Johan taught me about elbow drop with the stroke'.
Swing is defined as a to and fro motion. The motion is from an axis or any suspension. In the case of a pendulum it is from a fixed axis. In the case of a full arm swing it is from the suspended upper arm including the elbow.

The action of a pendulum stroke? as described in expansion/contraction terms emphasizes that different muscles are involved in each direction. The functional intent of the pause at the back of the swing should be to ensure that the muscles complete their action and the forward muscles in turn initiate the second phase. If the axis remains fixed the swing must slow to a stop before going forward. If the swing does not stop it indicates a looping action at the back of the swing.

However, when the swing comes from a suspension, such as the upper arm, a continuous motion is possible without a pause. Most sports swings are looping swings. Among the criteria behind a pendulum swing is the maintenance of an on shot plane travel through impact. The fixed pivot at the elbow satisfies a second criteria, fewer moving parts.

After years of accepting that model I became aware of another significant perspective. Smooth mechanical motion incorporates looping to maintain motion. A camshaft loops to avoid a jarring back and forth action using a stop. Smoothness becomes a criteria in that case.

By dropping the fixed axis constraint the swing become a motion from a suspension based one. The constraint becomes that no sideways looping can be allowed. That means there can be a loop at the back but it may only occur in the same vertical plane as the cue line. That leaves only two possible loops. One rises then falls as it moves forward, the second falls then rises as it moves ahead. Another criteria enters the choice. The cue travel through the contact has a trajectory based on the shot need. Bridge distance and height play a role but can be fixed prior to the stroke so are not part of this action discussion.

Dell Hill, Ronnie O’Sullivan’s mentor, taught several world champions that the loop should be one that rises then loops downward in the forward motion. Borrowing from the pendulum stroke the backstroke rises naturally from a fixed pivot, so he recommends the first half. That said, the starting position for a pendulum must be in impact position, level, on most shots. Dell deviates here. He points out that by necessity the cue must be angled downwards at address, on most shots, and that a level cue constraint is flawed. First in order to draw the cue back level and stay level, the elbow would need to drop during the takeaway.

Since that fails on so many other levels he says we have to accept that the butt of the cue must rise and the upward arc of the pendulum in fact creates an ever changing downward cue plane. This upward arcing creates increasing space between the grip hand and the table. Dell recommends a starting downward cue plane in the address position. The backswing arcs the cue hand higher naturally and above the pendulum position.

At the conclusion of the backward arc, the forward swing comes from the suspended upper arm. The opened elbow is kept as one with the whole arm including the upper arm and forearm starting the forward movement. The arm pivots slightly at the shoulder, the upper arm including the elbow, moving as one, start to drop. The functional intent is still to deliver the cue on the correct trajectory at impact. To that end the elbow folds naturally bringing the cue into a smooth landing. Dell turns his attention to the pause just before the start of the backswing. No attention is given to a pause at the back. As long as the cue stays on the shot plane it doesn’t matter.

If a pendulum stroke with a fixed elbow tried to drop down, as described above, the cue butt would fall below the bridge height creating an upward cue plane. By starting with a downward plane, space was created to allow the drop to arc much like a plane landing into the intended impact course. Dell creates the space at the address. His point is that fixed elbow pendulums are forced on a significant number of shots to assume that address position anyways but it serves no function purpose for them, only creates a delivery problem, within the pendulum stroke criterial constraints. Dell presents a reality check. The table gives us a downward plane on many shots.

How can you use it is a better question than how do we overcome it?

The answer to that lies in the physics equation
p=mv.
The “p” in physics stands for momentum. The m is mass and v is velocity. Each shot has momentum needs. Each ball needs enough momentum to complete the total shot. The mass and velocity are variables. The momentum for a shot is constant for each shot. If the mass of the upper arm is brought into play during the execution of the forward swing, the velocity of the cue can be reduced and still achieve the same momentum.

In motor skill execution there is a principle that simply says the faster a person is required to execute a skill the higher the number of errors. The addition of mass in the momentum equation allows the velocity to be reduced. In motor skills terms, errors are reduced.

The elbow drop is more of a result of bringing the whole arm’s mass into play. Pool is a game of control. Slower action is more easily controlled.

I like the drill with the balls spaced along the cushions. Pocketing without hitting another ball is the constraint of the setup. Once you get comfortable with pocketing attention can shift to precise pace and finally to more exact locations.

The arm needs to be aligned whether a pendulum from the elbow, a single plane hinge, is used or the whole arm coordinates the cue travel.

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01-31-2020, 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Swing is defined as a to and fro motion. The motion is from an axis or any suspension. In the case of a pendulum it is from a fixed axis. In the case of a full arm swing it is from the suspended upper arm including the elbow.

The action of a pendulum stroke? as described in expansion/contraction terms emphasizes that different muscles are involved in each direction. The functional intent of the pause at the back of the swing should be to ensure that the muscles complete their action and the forward muscles in turn initiate the second phase. If the axis remains fixed the swing must slow to a stop before going forward. If the swing does not stop it indicates a looping action at the back of the swing.

However, when the swing comes from a suspension, such as the upper arm, a continuous motion is possible without a pause. Most sports swings are looping swings. Among the criteria behind a pendulum swing is the maintenance of an on shot plane travel through impact. The fixed pivot at the elbow satisfies a second criteria, fewer moving parts.

After years of accepting that model I became aware of another significant perspective. Smooth mechanical motion incorporates looping to maintain motion. A camshaft loops to avoid a jarring back and forth action using a stop. Smoothness becomes a criteria in that case.

By dropping the fixed axis constraint the swing become a motion from a suspension based one. The constraint becomes that no sideways looping can be allowed. That means there can be a loop at the back but it may only occur in the same vertical plane as the cue line. That leaves only two possible loops. One rises then falls as it moves forward, the second falls then rises as it moves ahead. Another criteria enters the choice. The cue travel through the contact has a trajectory based on the shot need. Bridge distance and height play a role but can be fixed prior to the stroke so are not part of this action discussion.

Dell Hill, Ronnie O’Sullivan’s mentor, taught several world champions that the loop should be one that rises then loops downward in the forward motion. Borrowing from the pendulum stroke the backstroke rises naturally from a fixed pivot, so he recommends the first half. That said, the starting position for a pendulum must be in impact position, level, on most shots. Dell deviates here. He points out that by necessity the cue must be angled downwards at address, on most shots, and that a level cue constraint is flawed. First in order to draw the cue back level and stay level, the elbow would need to drop during the takeaway.

Since that fails on so many other levels he says we have to accept that the butt of the cue must rise and the upward arc of the pendulum in fact creates an ever changing downward cue plane. This upward arcing creates increasing space between the grip hand and the table. Dell recommends a starting downward cue plane in the address position. The backswing arcs the cue hand higher naturally and above the pendulum position.

At the conclusion of the backward arc, the forward swing comes from the suspended upper arm. The opened elbow is kept as one with the whole arm including the upper arm and forearm starting the forward movement. The arm pivots slightly at the shoulder, the upper arm including the elbow, moving as one, start to drop. The functional intent is still to deliver the cue on the correct trajectory at impact. To that end the elbow folds naturally bringing the cue into a smooth landing. Dell turns his attention to the pause just before the start of the backswing. No attention is given to a pause at the back. As long as the cue stays on the shot plane it doesn’t matter.

If a pendulum stroke with a fixed elbow tried to drop down, as described above, the cue butt would fall below the bridge height creating an upward cue plane. By starting with a downward plane, space was created to allow the drop to arc much like a plane landing into the intended impact course. Dell creates the space at the address. His point is that fixed elbow pendulums are forced on a significant number of shots to assume that address position anyways but it serves no function purpose for them, only creates a delivery problem, within the pendulum stroke criterial constraints. Dell presents a reality check. The table gives us a downward plane on many shots.

How can you use it is a better question than how do we overcome it?

The answer to that lies in the physics equation
p=mv.
The “p” in physics stands for momentum. The m is mass and v is velocity. Each shot has momentum needs. Each ball needs enough momentum to complete the total shot. The mass and velocity are variables. The momentum for a shot is constant for each shot. If the mass of the upper arm is brought into play during the execution of the forward swing, the velocity of the cue can be reduced and still achieve the same momentum.

In motor skill execution there is a principle that simply says the faster a person is required to execute a skill the higher the number of errors. The addition of mass in the momentum equation allows the velocity to be reduced. In motor skills terms, errors are reduced.

The elbow drop is more of a result of bringing the whole arm’s mass into play. Pool is a game of control. Slower action is more easily controlled.

I like the drill with the balls spaced along the cushions. Pocketing without hitting another ball is the constraint of the setup. Once you get comfortable with pocketing attention can shift to precise pace and finally to more exact locations.

The arm needs to be aligned whether a pendulum from the elbow, a single plane hinge, is used or the whole arm coordinates the cue travel.
Lots of theory there ---- but have you actually experimented with the elbow drop stroke and examined the differences between the elbow drop and 'pendulum' strokes for different types of shots? Also, have you examined the timing of the elbow drop for different types of strokes and the relationship with various grip positions during the elbow drop and how that affects certain shots?

If you really want to fully understand the elbow drop stroke, you have to experiment and compare beyond just analyzing the physiology and theory. Experiment and compare results using actual shots.

I'll help you with a starting point: Explore the possibility of level stroking and how that affects certain shots.

Last edited by FranCrimi; 01-31-2020 at 03:16 PM.
  
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01-31-2020, 03:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Lots of theory there ---- but have you actually experimented with the elbow drop stroke and examined the differences between the elbow drop and 'pendulum' strokes for different types of shots? Also, have you examined the timing of the elbow drop for different types of strokes and the relationship with various grip positions during the elbow drop and how that affects certain shots?

If you really want to fully understand the elbow drop stroke, you have to experiment and compare beyond just analyzing the physiology and theory. Experiment and compare results using actual shots.

I'll help you with a starting point: Explore the possibility of level stroking and how that affects certain shots.
I have.
I have come to the conclusion that when the cue ball is frozen or near the rail, it is much tougher to hit accurately ( and control the speed ) without dropping the elbow and have a smooth piston stroke.
  
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01-31-2020, 03:48 PM

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Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
I have.
I have come to the conclusion that when the cue ball is frozen or near the rail, it is much tougher to hit accurately ( and control the speed ) without dropping the elbow and have a smooth piston stroke.
I didn't know that one. Thanks! There's even more. Keep experimenting.
  
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01-31-2020, 04:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
If the mass of the upper arm is brought into play during the execution of the forward swing, the velocity of the cue can be reduced and still achieve the same momentum.
I don't believe the mass of the arm can be brought to bear on the CB because of the flexing of the soft skin of the grip hand. See Dr. Dave's explanation here: https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/...ight-vs-tight/

Sorry, I didn't read all of your post, so I might have misunderstood you.

Speaking of it, have you considered adding a "tl;dr" summary paragraph to your long technical posts? They look interesting, but they're too long for me and I'd like having a way to choose which ones to wade into. Who knows, it might even increase your readership...

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