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Patrick Johnson
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01-01-2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
GREAT! Is the ROBOT already in place or are you going to construct one? I would love to provide input to any model that is capable as Bob described.

Stan Shuffett
No actual robot needed - it's easy enough to recognize system instructions that a computer or robot could follow, and even what fraction of shots they fully define, if any.

Of course, that only defines a system that's fully "objective" - that takes you "robotically" to the exact CB/OB alignment needed for any shot without any human judgment or "adjustment" needed. Hardly any aiming system fits that description, but all of them seem to be helpful to their users. I think they're "valid" in that sense.

pj
chgo

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01-01-2019, 06:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
No actual robot needed - it's easy enough to recognize system instructions that a computer or robot could follow, and even what fraction of shots they fully define, if any.

Of course, that only defines a system that's fully "objective" - that takes you "robotically" to the exact CB/OB alignment needed for any shot without any human judgment or "adjustment" needed. Hardly any aiming system fits that description, but all of them seem to be helpful to their users. I think they're "valid" in that sense.

pj
chgo
Oh, I see! A man with an imaginary robot. Nice story!

Your issue centers around your lack of understanding of how vision can actually work for solving shot lines.

It’s absolutely impossible to program a computer with vision capabilities commensurate with that of human vision.
Your idea of vision for aiming in pool is quite narrow. Pay attention and you can widen the scope of what your vision can do when aiming 2 pool balls.

Stan Shuffett

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Patrick Johnson
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01-01-2019, 07:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
Your issue centers around your lack of understanding of how vision can actually work for solving shot lines.
I have an issue?

Quote:
Itís absolutely impossible to program a computer with vision capabilities commensurate with that of human vision.
For pool purposes I think today's technology is easily capable of outdoing human vision.

Quote:
Your idea of vision for aiming in pool is quite narrow.
Really? What is my idea of vision for aiming in pool?

Quote:
Pay attention and you can widen the scope of what your vision can do when aiming 2 pool balls.
OK. Good talk.

pj
chgo
  
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01-01-2019, 08:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The reason I include the robot is that some "systems" are so nebulous and poorly described that it is impossible to say what they really mean. If you require the robot part, you can ask the person proposing the potential system, "For this particular shot, exactly where will the stick be pointing and which steps did you go through to get there?"

I want to see each system described well enough that its inherent inaccuracy can actually be measured without a human player involved.

Yes. It makes sense. At first I responded here with some possible exceptions, but after thinking about it, I realized my argument was weak. So I'm editing this post and am going to have to agree with you about your reasoning for the robot.

Last edited by FranCrimi; 01-01-2019 at 09:31 PM.
  
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01-01-2019, 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I have an issue?


For pool purposes I think today's technology is easily capable of outdoing human vision.


Really? What is my idea of vision for aiming in pool?


OK. Good talk.

pj
chgo
The programming might could be done for conventional aiming but not for offset aiming and sighting.

Your idea of aiming is placing one’s vision center behind CCB.

Stan Shuffett
  
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01-02-2019, 07:19 AM

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Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
Man, were you ever fed a bunch of crap.

I have taught Hal's systems since 1985
long before Tom came on the scene!

Hal never charged me once for a lesson or asked for a rebate.

randyg
I'm not trying to start a firestorm. I've taught some of Hal's stuff and also posted some of Hal's stuff in Inside Pool with Tom as the editor--so Tom did post some of Hal's stuff free of cost.

My understanding is Hal had quite a few systems and did not show all of his systems to all persons.


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01-02-2019, 07:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I know of no such definition on AZB. Perhaps someone has posted something useful in the aiming subforum or perhaps no one has ever posted anything useful there.

But here is a working definition for now:
A "valid" aiming system is a set of instructions for setting up the line of a cue stick so that the cue ball will drive the object ball towards the pocket. The instructions must be complete enough that a computer could be programmed to execute the shot given that the computer has perfect vision, perfect knowledge of the positions of the balls, and perfect control of the cue stick.
A valid system is a good system if it satisfies the above and also will drive all object balls it's applied to into the center of the pocket when followed perfectly. There are lots of valid systems (they have clear instructions) that are very poor at pocketing balls.

For me, "move the stick around until it feels like the shot will go" is not a system. It is also the way most people play because they are people and not computers.

Very few systems include throw accurately enough to to be considered good. Ghost ball is mediocre unless you correct for throw. The amount of throw you get depends on whether you have draw/stun/follow on the cue ball. How many self-styled "systems" tell you to aim thinner for a stun shot? And how many include the fact that throw varies with speed?

A good example of a valid but bad system is the one Hal Mix describes in his book. The instructions are clear and the results (if the instructions are followed) are pitiful beyond belief. That system does get you to hit the ball on the correct side, but that's about it. Mix played well. He did not apply his system.
This is most helpful, and eminently clear. Thank you!


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Patrick Johnson
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01-02-2019, 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
Itís absolutely impossible to program a computer with vision capabilities commensurate with that of human vision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
For pool purposes I think today's technology is easily capable of outdoing human vision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
The programming might could be done for conventional aiming but not for offset aiming and sighting.
If "offset aiming and sighting" is how your system works, it can't be programmed because it can't be described clearly.

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chgo
  
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01-02-2019, 10:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
If "offset aiming and sighting" is how your system works, it can't be programmed because it can't be described clearly.

pj
chgo
I can describe Center to Edge very, very clearly and will do so for the entire world to see
“free of charge” in my TRUTH SERIES.

You’re right, though, programming a robot for CTE is not going to happen. I commend YOU on being intelligent enough to recognize that.

At least, WE, can converse civily.

The bottom line with CTE is that a handful of perceptions can be learned and repeated. I see that as a very good thing and I think that many, many people will appreciate getting the real spill about CTE.

Stan Shuffett

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Patrick Johnson
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01-02-2019, 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
If "offset aiming and sighting" is how your system works, it can't be programmed because it can't be described clearly.

pj
chgo
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan shuffett View Post
I can describe Center to Edge very, very clearly and will do so for the entire world to see “free of charge” in my TRUTH SERIES.

You’re right, though, programming a robot for CTE is not going to happen.
If not, then CTE's instructions are, by definition, not "objective" - that's what programmable means here. CTE's instructions, like every other system, rely on "know it when I see it" judgment by the player (I think that's what you call its "perceptions").

As I've said many times before, that doesn't mean it's a "bad" system, or that it "doesn't work". It just means the player is an integral, functional part of it, like all systems - CTE "works" just like they do (maybe better for you if you like it best).

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01-02-2019, 12:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
If not, then CTE's instructions are, by definition, not "objective" - that's what programmable means here. CTE's instructions, like every other system, rely on "know it when I see it" judgment by the player (I think that's what you call its "perceptions").

As I've said many times before, that doesn't mean it's a "bad" system, or that it "doesn't work". It just means the player is an integral, functional part of it, like all systems - CTE "works" just like they do (maybe better for you if you like it best).

pj
chgo
It can be accomplished if the robot has “perfect [human] vision” as Bob stated. Let me be clear. CTE can not be programed into something that is camera/video-like.

Concerning “know it when I see it”. I know it when I see it because I can clearly explain what my vision sees.

Years ago, I knew it when I saw it but couldn’t explain it. Now, I can explain it. Multitudes are going to understand it and see it as well.

Stan Shuffett
  
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01-04-2019, 12:56 PM

Let's keep the insults out of this thread. (Stan, Patrick, Greyghost)


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01-04-2019, 01:40 PM

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Originally Posted by AzHousePro View Post
Let's keep the insults out of this thread. (Stan, Patrick, Greyghost)
Have I made an insult in this thread? If so, I'd appreciate you pointing it out to me.

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01-07-2019, 10:47 AM

I read through this thread and I didn't see any insults. Contention and discussion yes, but it was civil.

In any case I wanted to throw my .02 in regarding the OP's original question (though I'm not sure if he is following this anymore). Based on your post I think you have the right idea in that you are taking an organized approach to your practice, and you are practicing different things in small chunks of time. However, I would add that you should first assess where your weaknesses are and adapt your practice routine to work on those areas that give you the most trouble.

The Billiard University exams are a good scorable test that examine a multitude of different pool skills. You should take a few honest runs through the BU tests and then structure your practice around the items where you seemed weakest. The drills themselves done individually, outside of the test, can be quite helpful. Also, you should definitely spend part of your practice time on your stroke as Scott Lee has already suggested in this thread.


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06-14-2019, 05:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Calling anything you teach "secrets" is marketing BS, whether from you or (my old friend) Tom.

pj
chgo
Marketing was Tom's professional background. We worked together and shot some stick as well. Was sorry to learn he passed. He was a generous soul and well intentioned, and yes he did "market". That said, he always delivered above what you paid.
  
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