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Advantages to Shaft Deflection ?
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ChrisinNC
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Advantages to Shaft Deflection ? - 08-15-2019, 11:33 AM

About 6 months ago, I switched from a Mezz EXPro shaft (12.5mm) to a Mezz WX900 (12.0mm), mainly because the WX900 deflected considerably less than the EXPro shaft on shots when using spin - a major amount less when applying alot of spin. I thought this would improve my shotmaking accuracy when needing to spin the cue ball for positioning. As I've continued to search for anything that might help get me out of my current slump, just this week I've switched back to the higher deflecting EXPro shaft. Even though it is touted as a low deflection shaft, it certainly deflects way more than the WX900 shaft.

One of the shots which seems to come up relatively often, in which having a shaft with a decent amount of deflection may be an advantage over a shaft with less deflection is the nearly straight in shot in which you need to somehow create enough of an angle in order to get position on your next shot. This is a shot in which (in your aiming process) loading up with spin in order to work the cue ball (generally with high inside spin) off 1 or 2 rails for shape on the next ball.

With a very low deflecting shaft, it's nearly impossible to pull off this shot without risking following the cue ball directly behind the object ball in to the pocket or likely hitting off the points of the pocket, ruining your positioning. By contrast, with a shaft that deflects considerably more, even on a nearly straight in shot, when loading up with spin, it requires you to compensate in your aiming so that your are no longer aiming to shoot the ball straight in, which seems to create enough of an angle to follow behind the object ball without risking scratching, and allowing you to get the necessary shape for the next ball. Do others here agree with this example of a shot in which a shaft with a higher amount of deflection actually works to your advantage?

Last edited by ChrisinNC; 08-15-2019 at 11:35 AM.
  
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Jude Rosenstock
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08-15-2019, 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
About 6 months ago, I switched from a Mezz EXPro shaft (12.5mm) to a Mezz WX900 (12.0mm), mainly because the WX900 deflected considerably less than the EXPro shaft on shots when using spin - a major amount less when applying alot of spin. I thought this would improve my shotmaking accuracy when needing to spin the cue ball for positioning. As I've continued to search for anything that might help get me out of my current slump, just this week I've switched back to the higher deflecting EXPro shaft. Even though it is touted as a low deflection shaft, it certainly deflects way more than the WX900 shaft.

One of the shots which seems to come up relatively often, in which having a shaft with a decent amount of deflection may be an advantage over a shaft with less deflection is the nearly straight in shot in which you need to somehow create enough of an angle in order to get position on your next shot. This is a shot in which (in your aiming process) loading up with spin in order to work the cue ball (generally with high inside spin) off 1 or 2 rails for shape on the next ball.

With a very low deflecting shaft, it's nearly impossible to pull off this shot without risking following the cue ball directly behind the object ball in to the pocket or likely hitting off the points of the pocket, ruining your positioning. By contrast, with a shaft that deflects considerably more, even on a nearly straight in shot, when loading up with spin, it requires you to compensate in your aiming so that your are no longer aiming to shoot the ball straight in, which seems to create enough of an angle to follow behind the object ball without risking scratching, and allowing you to get the necessary shape for the next ball. Do others here agree with this example of a shot in which a shaft with a higher amount of deflection actually works to your advantage?
Your brain is subconsciously making calculations when you're aiming. So much so, that it's really hard to adjust to new equipment sometimes, even if the new equipment is supposed to be easier to use. The bottom line is, each and every person has a personal experience with their cue and this game. No matter what anyone says here, it doesn't mean what you're experiencing isn't real.

In my opinion, it's best to keep equipment changes to a minimum, especially when you're in a slump. That said, sometimes switching it up can encourage you to play more which is almost always good.


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08-15-2019, 12:02 PM

That is one of the advantages as you mentioned.
With very low squirt shaft, the cue ball will likely not deflect enough and might also throw the ob more.
On high inside english shots, you are liable to scratch as you noted .
It comes up more often in one-pocket than in rotation games .


  
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08-15-2019, 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
... Do others here agree with this example of a shot in which a shaft with a higher amount of deflection actually works to your advantage?
No. I think that if you aim slightly differently with the "bad" shaft it will work fine for the shot. Whether that different aim will ever seem correct and natural to you is a different question.


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08-15-2019, 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
That is one of the advantages as you mentioned.
With very low squirt shaft, the cue ball will likely not deflect enough and might also throw the ob more.
On high inside english shots, you are liable to scratch as you noted .
It comes up more often in one-pocket than in rotation games .
But all he has to do is aim to cheat the pocket a little. With a higher-squirt shaft, the cheat is sort of built in.

I don't think a low-squirt shaft causes more friction between the cue ball and object ball, and thus cannot cause more throw.


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08-15-2019, 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
No. I think that if you aim slightly differently with the "bad" shaft it will work fine for the shot. Whether that different aim will ever seem correct and natural to you is a different question.
That was my thought when I read the original post. Deflecting more is exactly the same as aiming a little different. The advantage might be that you don't have to adjust your aim as much with a high deflection shaft on certain shots. But I don't think it can be true that the high deflection shaft can actually make shots that the low deflection shot cannot.
  
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I agree - 08-15-2019, 12:24 PM

I think it sounds correct to me but I do not have a LD shaft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
About 6 months ago, I switched from a Mezz EXPro shaft (12.5mm) to a Mezz WX900 (12.0mm), mainly because the WX900 deflected considerably less than the EXPro shaft on shots when using spin - a major amount less when applying alot of spin. I thought this would improve my shotmaking accuracy when needing to spin the cue ball for positioning. As I've continued to search for anything that might help get me out of my current slump, just this week I've switched back to the higher deflecting EXPro shaft. Even though it is touted as a low deflection shaft, it certainly deflects way more than the WX900 shaft.

One of the shots which seems to come up relatively often, in which having a shaft with a decent amount of deflection may be an advantage over a shaft with less deflection is the nearly straight in shot in which you need to somehow create enough of an angle in order to get position on your next shot. This is a shot in which (in your aiming process) loading up with spin in order to work the cue ball (generally with high inside spin) off 1 or 2 rails for shape on the next ball.

With a very low deflecting shaft, it's nearly impossible to pull off this shot without risking following the cue ball directly behind the object ball in to the pocket or likely hitting off the points of the pocket, ruining your positioning. By contrast, with a shaft that deflects considerably more, even on a nearly straight in shot, when loading up with spin, it requires you to compensate in your aiming so that your are no longer aiming to shoot the ball straight in, which seems to create enough of an angle to follow behind the object ball without risking scratching, and allowing you to get the necessary shape for the next ball. Do others here agree with this example of a shot in which a shaft with a higher amount of deflection actually works to your advantage?
  
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08-15-2019, 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
About 6 months ago, I switched from a Mezz EXPro shaft (12.5mm) to a Mezz WX900 (12.0mm), mainly because the WX900 deflected considerably less than the EXPro shaft on shots when using spin - a major amount less when applying alot of spin. I thought this would improve my shotmaking accuracy when needing to spin the cue ball for positioning. As I've continued to search for anything that might help get me out of my current slump, just this week I've switched back to the higher deflecting EXPro shaft. Even though it is touted as a low deflection shaft, it certainly deflects way more than the WX900 shaft.

One of the shots which seems to come up relatively often, in which having a shaft with a decent amount of deflection may be an advantage over a shaft with less deflection is the nearly straight in shot in which you need to somehow create enough of an angle in order to get position on your next shot. This is a shot in which (in your aiming process) loading up with spin in order to work the cue ball (generally with high inside spin) off 1 or 2 rails for shape on the next ball.

With a very low deflecting shaft, it's nearly impossible to pull off this shot without risking following the cue ball directly behind the object ball in to the pocket or likely hitting off the points of the pocket, ruining your positioning. By contrast, with a shaft that deflects considerably more, even on a nearly straight in shot, when loading up with spin, it requires you to compensate in your aiming so that your are no longer aiming to shoot the ball straight in, which seems to create enough of an angle to follow behind the object ball without risking scratching, and allowing you to get the necessary shape for the next ball. Do others here agree with this example of a shot in which a shaft with a higher amount of deflection actually works to your advantage?
I'm no expert, but I'm thinking that this isn't correct.

As an initial side note, it is my understanding that LD shafts cause less CB deflection, as opposed to the shafts themselves deflecting less.

But that aside, while it is the case that by using a LD shaft you do not have to compensate as much for CB deflection when aiming, the spin that you put on the CB is going to have the same effect on the OB irrespective of whether the CB has been hit with a standard shaft or a LD shaft. This assumes, of course, that in both cases the CB contacts the OB in the same spot, and that the CB travels at the same speed.

Put another way, the aim point may be different with different shafts, but as long as the CB travels at the same speed, ends up hitting the same spot on the OB, and has the same amount of spin, the path of both the CB and the OB, post-contact, will be the same.

So, when aiming to play the shot that you describe (a "nearly straight in shot"), I think that one needs to factor in all the variables, including the amount of deflection caused by the shaft being used, and aim accordingly, with the goal of contacting the spot on the OB that will result in the OB being pocketed while also sending the CB off at an angle. Assuming no cheating of the pocket (which is a big variable in whether this shot is pulled off or not), the spot on the OB which should be contacted is not the spot that is directly in line with the middle of the pocket because the spin on the CB will cause gear effect throw which, in turn, will cause the OB to deviate from the straight line between the OB and the center of the pocket (to a greater or lesser degree as a function of the speed of the CB).

Boiled all the way down, no matter what shaft you use, you can play the shot as a slight cut shot, and the degree of cut does not change depending on the shaft that you use.

Happy to be corrected if I have this wrong.
  
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08-15-2019, 12:40 PM

Quote:
just this week I've switched back to the higher deflecting EXPro shaft. Even though it is touted as a low deflection shaft, it certainly deflects way more than the WX900 shaft.
That is correct.
"low deflection" as currently applied to a shaft, means it should cause the cueball to deflect (actually squirt) -less- than a conventional shaft with same offset.

How does that work?
Newton - every action has an opposite and equal reaction.
So a stiff shaft with mass at the tip end, will not deflect much, causing the CB to deflect more. If the shaft is low mass at the tip, and limber, it will deflect more with the same offset and impact, and the CB will deflect less.

As is widely commented, that does not meany any one of us with play better with an LD or a "conventional" shaft. That gets down to subjective comfort/feel/etc. We all compensate one way of another for anything that is not a straight in stop shot. So the way that feels comfortable to you to compensate will probably work better.

That said, I've advised people in a slump to just change cues, any cue. If things are different enough, it seems that refocuses the mind to what is going on with the shot, rather than all the other head stuff that actually causes us to miss. You might discover you hate the cue after a bit, but unless currently in dead stroke, you will probably quickly start shooting better with it for a short time, than with the familiar cue.

Or not.

smt

edited: Seth types faster than i do.
  
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08-15-2019, 12:49 PM

I have only used high quality straight grain maple shafts and never had a problem aiming or making a ball- english or no english- over time your brain LEARNS where to hit the object ball to make any shot. I never complicated my game by switching to so called low deflection equipment- and my point to all of this is that I firmly believe that you should stick with ONE type of shaft- either LD / or not; AND let your brain LEARN that shaft's deflection qualities and then shoot accordingly.
If the LD shaft prohibits hitting a cue ball with english on a follow shot towards a pocket, where the hit on the OB is dead center, because the LD calls for no compensation on the hit target of dead center, then just FORGET the english on that shot and cheat the pocket left or right- of course, pockets at 4 1/2 or less will make cheating the pocket that much more difficult! SEE how all these so called "improvements" to equipment can make your pool life more complicated- just like technology- ain't it?
  
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08-15-2019, 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
About 6 months ago, I switched from a Mezz EXPro shaft (12.5mm) to a Mezz WX900 (12.0mm), mainly because the WX900 deflected considerably less than the EXPro shaft on shots when using spin - a major amount less when applying alot of spin. I thought this would improve my shotmaking accuracy when needing to spin the cue ball for positioning. As I've continued to search for anything that might help get me out of my current slump, just this week I've switched back to the higher deflecting EXPro shaft. Even though it is touted as a low deflection shaft, it certainly deflects way more than the WX900 shaft.

One of the shots which seems to come up relatively often, in which having a shaft with a decent amount of deflection may be an advantage over a shaft with less deflection is the nearly straight in shot in which you need to somehow create enough of an angle in order to get position on your next shot. This is a shot in which (in your aiming process) loading up with spin in order to work the cue ball (generally with high inside spin) off 1 or 2 rails for shape on the next ball.

With a very low deflecting shaft, it's nearly impossible to pull off this shot without risking following the cue ball directly behind the object ball in to the pocket or likely hitting off the points of the pocket, ruining your positioning. By contrast, with a shaft that deflects considerably more, even on a nearly straight in shot, when loading up with spin, it requires you to compensate in your aiming so that your are no longer aiming to shoot the ball straight in, which seems to create enough of an angle to follow behind the object ball without risking scratching, and allowing you to get the necessary shape for the next ball. Do others here agree with this example of a shot in which a shaft with a higher amount of deflection actually works to your advantage?
I do not believe a higher deflection cue can work to your advantage. Its about adjustments. If you keep going back and forth between shafts...that will create confusion with your game and inconsistency in your thinking. With a straighter shot your trying to create and angle for? It has more to do with using the correct part of the pocket if possible to make space. Now that I have got used to a LD shaft, everything makes sense. I can load up the CB with spin and the CB will keep its path, thats the LD's job, its my job to "cheat" the pocket by 1/8"-1/4" when necessary and possible.
  
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08-15-2019, 01:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
I'm no expert, but I'm thinking that this isn't correct.

As an initial side note, it is my understanding that LD shafts cause less CB deflection, as opposed to the shafts themselves deflecting less.

But that aside, while it is the case that by using a LD shaft you do not have to compensate as much for CB deflection when aiming, the spin that you put on the CB is going to have the same effect on the OB irrespective of whether the CB has been hit with a standard shaft or a LD shaft. This assumes, of course, that in both cases the CB contacts the OB in the same spot, and that the CB travels at the same speed.

Put another way, the aim point may be different with different shafts, but as long as the CB travels at the same speed, ends up hitting the same spot on the OB, and has the same amount of spin, the path of both the CB and the OB, post-contact, will be the same.

So, when aiming to play the shot that you describe (a "nearly straight in shot"), I think that one needs to factor in all the variables, including the amount of deflection caused by the shaft being used, and aim accordingly, with the goal of contacting the spot on the OB that will result in the OB being pocketed while also sending the CB off at an angle. Assuming no cheating of the pocket (which is a big variable in whether this shot is pulled off or not), the spot on the OB which should be contacted is not the spot that is directly in line with the middle of the pocket because the spin on the CB will cause gear effect throw which, in turn, will cause the OB to deviate from the straight line between the OB and the center of the pocket (to a greater or lesser degree as a function of the speed of the CB).

Boiled all the way down, no matter what shaft you use, you can play the shot as a slight cut shot, and the degree of cut does not change depending on the shaft that you use.

Happy to be corrected if I have this wrong.
This is 100% correct. The cue ball's reaction off the object ball is going to be the same regardless of whether the cue ball was hit with a maple shaft, LD shaft, or a broom stick. From a physics standpoint, the cue ball/object ball collision reaction is not dependent on what initially propelled the cue ball.

I do understand what you mean though. I think you are subconsciously adjusting for deflection when you shoudn't be with the LD shaft. By adjusting, you are hitting the shot more straight which causes the scratch.
  
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08-15-2019, 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
I have only used high quality straight grain maple shafts and never had a problem aiming or making a ball- english or no english- over time your brain LEARNS where to hit the object ball to make any shot. I never complicated my game by switching to so called low deflection equipment- and my point to all of this is that I firmly believe that you should stick with ONE type of shaft- either LD / or not; AND let your brain LEARN that shaft's deflection qualities and then shoot accordingly.
If the LD shaft prohibits hitting a cue ball with english on a follow shot towards a pocket, where the hit on the OB is dead center, because the LD calls for no compensation on the hit target of dead center, then just FORGET the english on that shot and cheat the pocket left or right- of course, pockets at 4 1/2 or less will make cheating the pocket that much more difficult! SEE how all these so called "improvements" to equipment can make your pool life more complicated- just like technology- ain't it?
I agree with everything you say, other than "having" to stick with one or the other. If you have good fundamentals...you can adjust to an LD or back to a regular shaft. Totally agree that your brain will adjust accordingly. The key to me, honestly, is just making sure you use the same tip. It seems that if the "hit" is almost identical, and the taper is familiar...adjusting to different levels of deflection is much easier.


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08-15-2019, 01:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssonerai View Post
I've advised people in a slump to just change cues, any cue. If things are different enough, it seems that refocuses the mind to what is going on with the shot, rather than all the other head stuff that actually causes us to miss.
This. Every once in a while it helps to "regroup." Particularly in a slump. I have a method that's similar, with a twist, and it's so effective I'm keeping it a secret.


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08-15-2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelDaShot View Post
This is 100% correct. The cue ball's reaction off the object ball is going to be the same regardless of whether the cue ball was hit with a maple shaft, LD shaft, or a broom stick. From a physics standpoint, the cue ball/object ball collision reaction is not dependent on what initially propelled the cue ball.

I do understand what you mean though. I think you are subconsciously adjusting for deflection when you shoudn't be with the LD shaft. By adjusting, you are hitting the shot more straight which causes the scratch.
Yeah, I agree with that too! I don't shoot with a low deflection shaft anymore because I had a similar experience and acknowledge that it's completely in my head. I expect some deflection and when that doesn't happen I have a difficult time adjusting. So, for me, a standard maple shaft is what I'm most comfortable using and tend to shoot better with. I'm sure if I put in the time to relearn I could....but I'll just play my plain maple shafts for now as I'm very comfortable with them.

I think you can shoot any shot with either shaft, but sometimes you'll find it easier with one or the other and so much so that it seems like you can't make the shot with a particular style shaft because your mind won't allow you to execute the shot in that fashion.
  
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