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Bob Jewett
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12-26-2018, 09:23 AM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
... There are also quite a few instructors and pros who teach no aim systems, because it makes them uncomfortable, in part because they aim by instinct and have no systems they advocate.
Which instructors are those?


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12-26-2018, 10:13 AM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
But you will recall Tom Simpson was officially teaching Houle systems in his seminars. Do you teach them? If not, they would be a secret to your students until they went to Tom's clinic, right?
FYI, "secret" and "unfamiliar" are not the same thing.

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12-27-2018, 03:29 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
FYI, "secret" and "unfamiliar" are not the same thing.

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chgo
I understand the difference. Tom was the sole licensed Houle teacher, for example, and he would teach these systems for pay, not for free, making them secret.


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12-27-2018, 03:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Which instructors are those?
I know a number of teachers and pros who teach an aim rubric (of course) but not what is defined at AZ as an aim system, who demonstrate ghost ball, but when asked, told me they don't go past that in lessons, because they aim instinctively.

I believe an aim rubric but not a system is found in all official teaching manuals (PBIA, BCA, etc.) also?


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Bob Jewett
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12-27-2018, 08:04 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I know a number of teachers and pros who teach an aim rubric (of course) but not what is defined at AZ as an aim system, who demonstrate ghost ball, but when asked, told me they don't go past that in lessons, because they aim instinctively.

I believe an aim rubric but not a system is found in all official teaching manuals (PBIA, BCA, etc.) also?
Some of your beliefs are not correct.


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12-31-2018, 08:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Some of your beliefs are not correct.
If showing an aim line and shot line only is an "aim system", I'm incorrect. I'm sure there's some threads somewhere here where AZ defined what an aim system is?


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12-31-2018, 01:35 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I understand the difference. Tom was the sole licensed Houle teacher, for example, and he would teach these systems for pay, not for free, making them secret.
Man, were you ever fed a bunch of crap.

I have taught Hal's systems since 1985
long before Tom came on the scene!

Hal never charged me once for a lesson or asked for a rebate.

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Bob Jewett
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12-31-2018, 02:16 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
If showing an aim line and shot line only is an "aim system", I'm incorrect. I'm sure there's some threads somewhere here where AZ defined what an aim system is?
I know of no such definition on AZB. Perhaps someone has posted something useful in the aiming subforum or perhaps no one has ever posted anything useful there.

But here is a working definition for now:
A "valid" aiming system is a set of instructions for setting up the line of a cue stick so that the cue ball will drive the object ball towards the pocket. The instructions must be complete enough that a computer could be programmed to execute the shot given that the computer has perfect vision, perfect knowledge of the positions of the balls, and perfect control of the cue stick.
A valid system is a good system if it satisfies the above and also will drive all object balls it's applied to into the center of the pocket when followed perfectly. There are lots of valid systems (they have clear instructions) that are very poor at pocketing balls.

For me, "move the stick around until it feels like the shot will go" is not a system. It is also the way most people play because they are people and not computers.

Very few systems include throw accurately enough to to be considered good. Ghost ball is mediocre unless you correct for throw. The amount of throw you get depends on whether you have draw/stun/follow on the cue ball. How many self-styled "systems" tell you to aim thinner for a stun shot? And how many include the fact that throw varies with speed?

A good example of a valid but bad system is the one Hal Mix describes in his book. The instructions are clear and the results (if the instructions are followed) are pitiful beyond belief. That system does get you to hit the ball on the correct side, but that's about it. Mix played well. He did not apply his system.


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12-31-2018, 02:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
A "valid" aiming system is a set of instructions for setting up the line of a cue stick so that the cue ball will drive the object ball towards the pocket. The instructions must be complete enough that a computer could be programmed to execute the shot given that the computer has perfect vision, perfect knowledge of the positions of the balls, and perfect control of the cue stick.
Isn't there a robot that does this? I remember seeing it online, but can't remember where.

I like your definition (robot-capable has come up in some conversations here) - I'd add that the instructions must be simple enough for a human player to use at the table without aids.

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Bob Jewett
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12-31-2018, 04:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Isn't there a robot that does this? I remember seeing it online, but can't remember where.

I like your definition (robot-capable has come up in some conversations here) - I'd add that the instructions must be simple enough for a human player to use at the table without aids.

pj
chgo
I think people can do pretty complicated and precise things with practice. See some of Titanic Thompson's remarkable feats for examples. Also, before transistors, slot machines had mechanical "randomizers". People were trained to cheat them by timing their handle releases within 1/20th of a second. They could, for example, walk the cherries around the reels to the middle and gradually drain the machine. Or so I'm told by a pretty reliable source.

And then there is Yo Yo Ma who plays the six Bach cello suites from memory in a single performance. Or maybe he makes it up as he goes along.

And more pool-related -- a friend of mine who breaks fullness of hit down into 64ths of a ball, knows the actual angle for each of those cuts and knows the angles the two ball paths make versus the rails by measuring sine and cosine components with the diamonds. Most people would probably not be able to do that, but apparently he could. He also tries 100% on every shot and you see very few people do that, even among top players.


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12-31-2018, 05:03 PM

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Isn't there a robot that does this? I remember seeing it online, but can't remember where....
The robots I've seen only make easy shots. Nothing as hard as a spot shot. On the other hand, Iron Willie (1998 version) was capable of shooting spot shots all day long but had to be set up manually. Also, you could probably get Willie to scratch on every shot but I've never seen one of the autonomous pool robots use spin.


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01-01-2019, 05:57 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I know of no such definition on AZB. Perhaps someone has posted something useful in the aiming subforum or perhaps no one has ever posted anything useful there.

But here is a working definition for now:
A "valid" aiming system is a set of instructions for setting up the line of a cue stick so that the cue ball will drive the object ball towards the pocket. The instructions must be complete enough that a computer could be programmed to execute the shot given that the computer has perfect vision, perfect knowledge of the positions of the balls, and perfect control of the cue stick.
A valid system is a good system if it satisfies the above and also will drive all object balls it's applied to into the center of the pocket when followed perfectly. There are lots of valid systems (they have clear instructions) that are very poor at pocketing balls.

For me, "move the stick around until it feels like the shot will go" is not a system. It is also the way most people play because they are people and not computers.

Very few systems include throw accurately enough to to be considered good. Ghost ball is mediocre unless you correct for throw. The amount of throw you get depends on whether you have draw/stun/follow on the cue ball. How many self-styled "systems" tell you to aim thinner for a stun shot? And how many include the fact that throw varies with speed?

A good example of a valid but bad system is the one Hal Mix describes in his book. The instructions are clear and the results (if the instructions are followed) are pitiful beyond belief. That system does get you to hit the ball on the correct side, but that's about it. Mix played well. He did not apply his system.

I like this concept but I think I'd prefer to leave out the robot.

Here's my working definition:

To me, a valid aiming system is a methodology that can be repeated by an individual with the same degree of success each time. It doesn't matter whether the success rate is 100% or 5%, as long as it's the same every time for that particular player.

I don't think we should consider defining a universally good or universally bad system, considering the huge number if differing traits that people have.

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01-01-2019, 10:25 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
I like this concept but I think I'd prefer to leave out the robot. ...
The reason I include the robot is that some "systems" are so nebulous and poorly described that it is impossible to say what they really mean. If you require the robot part, you can ask the person proposing the potential system, "For this particular shot, exactly where will the stick be pointing and which steps did you go through to get there?"

I want to see each system described well enough that its inherent inaccuracy can actually be measured without a human player involved.


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01-01-2019, 11:43 AM

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The reason I include the robot is that some "systems" are so nebulous and poorly described that it is impossible to say what they really mean.
Yes, it takes the "know it when I see it" factor out of the equation. Otherwise you're only measuring what "story" the player likes best.

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01-01-2019, 01:14 PM

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Yes, it takes the "know it when I see it" factor out of the equation. Otherwise you're only measuring what "story" the player likes best.

pj
chgo
GREAT! Is the ROBOT already in place or are you going to construct one? I would love to provide input to any model that is capable as Bob described.

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